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Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one) (Read 3478 times)
Reply #104 - Nov 28th, 2018 at 12:46pm

Skyediamonds   Offline
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Alrighty:  Just received written permission from a gentleman named Mark of Scale Aviation Modeller to use their photos of the early version of the P-51D Mustang.  This is a British publication of plastic models devoted strictly to aviation in general and aircraft in particular.  To me, this is one of the better publications on detailing of plastic modeling.  This particular issue is from December of 2017 (last year as of this writing).   

Last year, I was initially drawn to the front cover of the P-51 knowing that I would eventually start working on my daughter's Mustang.  So, in addition to collecting photos, stashing kits, and drawings, it also pays to save magazines.  You just never know when they'll become the next reference source.

Finally these pictures reveal parts of the Mustang I was not able to obtain otherwise on the full sized article.  It's not everyday one can flip a Mustang over on its back to illustrate the wheel well detailing as well as the joining of the wing to the fuselage as viewed from the underside.

As you can see from the first picture of the front cover, that Mustang really grabs one's attention. 

The next series of pictures really illustrate the wheel well outlines, the shape of the inner retracting wheel well doors and that small long "bump" running down the middle of the underside of the wing starting at the air scoop.  That "bump" is actually a cover for all the bolts used to fasten the two wing panels together.  This method of using all of those heavy-duty bolts is also duplicated on the Ryan Navion series of private planes.  It makes sense, because the Navion originated from North American when the war was over and NAA wanted to jump into the fast-growing private plane market.  Ultimately, the Navion series was turned over to Ryan Aeronautical, but that's another story.

The last picture really highlights how the wing's thickness is more pronounced on the top surface, with the underside more shallow.  It was also this area that was the focus of my attention in trying to figure out how to thicken the wing as well as making the lower surface of the wing more 'rounded" from the flat Guillow's wing, add wheel well details, and at the same time, deal with the revised leading edge of the wing meeting with the lower portion of the fuselage.

All photos on this post are courtesy Mr. Mark Willey of Scale Aviation Modeller, thank you very much, sir.  It's greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:36pm by Skyediamonds »  
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Reply #103 - Nov 27th, 2018 at 3:06pm

Skyediamonds   Offline
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Just a quick note to say that I sent a quick email to a British plastic model magazine for permission to use a couple of their photos of a Revell P-51D from their Dec. 2017 issue.  If granted, then I can post them to show some of the detailing I'm trying to achieve. 

We'll see.  In the meantime, I'll continue to post as I progress on my build.
 
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Reply #102 - Nov 23rd, 2018 at 7:34pm

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This is where I'm using Mike's ideas. 

I only need to add some "roundness" to the underside of the wing, not necessarily increasing its thickness.  So, I decided the best way to do this was just give it a tiny, itsy, bitsy, roundness to the underside of the wing by adding strips of balsa to the underside of the flat ribs and to the leading edge to compensate for the added balsa. 

When the strips are glued in and dried, then I'll emphasize the roundness of the leading edges to help create the illusion of a more laminar airfoil.   I'm purposely leaving the trailing edges alone and just going to "feather" in the rear portion of the "roundness" to the beginning of the flaps and ailerons.  I'm trying to keep things from getting too complicated.

These two pictures show what I'm trying to do.  In the first photo, strips of balsa are simply laid over the ribs for photographic purposes.  The second picture shows a small sample strip laid on top of the leading edge to help match up the added thickness.

Since I'm purposely going to have the flaps displayed in extended position, that will serve to help hide the feathering of the rounded surfaces to the edges. 
« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2018 at 9:37pm by Skyediamonds »  
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Reply #101 - Nov 23rd, 2018 at 7:18pm

Skyediamonds   Offline
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The rounding out the leading edges of the wing would initially appear as if that would be the solution and skip the issue of the flat underside of the wing.  That is, until I decided to check it out with notebook paper cut out to the shape of the wing and temporarily taped to the underside. 

Wow, that flat underside really showed up here.  On the second photograph, you're looking head-on to the leading edge of the wing with the tail to the fuselage in the background.  Pictures themselves can be tricky... Tongue
 
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Reply #100 - Nov 23rd, 2018 at 7:11pm

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Good evening everyone, and Sky9, thank you very much for that video of mating the wing to the fuselage on a P-51 Mustang and for your suggestions on how to maintain the top surface of the wiing and still preserve the wheel wells.  Great ideas!

Here are a few pictures of the detailed drawing of the Mustang series from A through D.  Really remarkable and detailed.  On this head-on view, it shows the thickness of the wing and its relationship with the mating to the underside of the fuselage.  I thought a close up shot of this portion of the drawing would help highlight what I'm seeking.

The next series of photos shows the flat underside of the Guillow's Clark Y airfoil we've been discussing a few postings back.  The head-on shots kind of creates the illusion that one only needs to round out the leading edges of the wing to compensate for the flat undersides. 

I'm going to follow Mike's suggestions here.  Thank you, Mike.

Note too, the leading edge of the wing as it touches the fuselage.  It's way out of the saddle and "up front."  To me, this is no big deal as I figured that was going to happen the minute I decided to enlarge the root chord.  I only need to just butt-join the leading edges of the wing to the fuselage rather than having them travel underneath the whole length.
« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2018 at 9:36pm by Skyediamonds »  
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Reply #99 - Nov 23rd, 2018 at 1:18pm

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I'd have been really tempted to leave the ribs through the wheel well and then with dremel in hand remove the necessary rib material to get the gear clearance needed this would keep the upper surface established without having to reshape the upper surface to match.  Just a thought. 
Tom
 

If God is your Co-pilot...switch seats...
Your attitude will determine your altitude!- John Maxwell
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. Jn 8:32
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Reply #98 - Nov 23rd, 2018 at 1:06pm

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Thought you might find this video interesting...the mating of a full size P-51D's fuselage to the wing: Click Here
 

If God is your Co-pilot...switch seats...
Your attitude will determine your altitude!- John Maxwell
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. Jn 8:32
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Reply #97 - Nov 22nd, 2018 at 7:00pm

Skyediamonds   Offline
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With the "new" wing chord at the root and revised wheel well outlines I'm now faced with a gaping hole to fill and yet at the same time, find a means to support the top covering.  Hmmmm

I'm also trying to figure out how to deal with the flat underside surface we discussed earlier.

The last picture shows to good effect the extra chord length that resulted from my revising the leading edge outline from the previous post, and the potential issues of trying to deal with the saddle to the fuselage.
 
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Reply #96 - Nov 22nd, 2018 at 5:33pm

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Happy Thanksgiving to everyone:

I'm at the point now of trying to determine the best way to fill in the wheel wells and a means of support for the top surface covering.  Normally, this wouldn't be an issue if I wasn't opening up the wheel wells.  The wing itself would be just constructed with the kit-supplied balsa ribs all the way to the root.  However, opening up the wells presented itself a whole new avenue of "how to" on the wing.

First off, I initially started outlining the wheel wells from the Guillow's plans to highlight the cutouts I would make to the underside surface covering when I noticed the discrepancies between the outlines drawn on the plans with the outlines of the scale drawings.   This would also reflect on the outlines and fabrication of the inner wheel well doors hanging down.

That's when the magic "White Out" tape came into play and from there, I also used a compass to help me extrapolate the outlines and enlargements.  The end results were reasonably close.  Some compromise had to be made balancing out the true fidelity of outlines with the construction of the model. 

I only needed to recreate one outline.  I decided on a whim to do the right one.  After all the corrections were made, I took a piece of school notebook paper and traced the outline of my "new" borders.   Then I simply flipped it over to the left side to ensure that they both were evenly matched, errors and all.

If you look carefully at photos 7A & 5A you'll see that I also changed the leading edge of the wing at the root to reflect a more close outline of the wing.  Yep, this means a bit more work on the saddle portion and how to deal with (now) a larger wing root chord.
« Last Edit: Nov 22nd, 2018 at 6:52pm by Skyediamonds »  
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Reply #95 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 12:28pm

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Good morning Mike, Tom & fellow members:

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. 

I'm enclosing a few photo-copies from MicroMark's catalog to illustrate my efforts at addressing potential decal issues.  Since this is to be metal-foil covered and my tests have revealed that this type of film coving will present decal challenges, I've searched through various catalogs and came up with some of these.

The first picture shows the rivet decals that I used with great success on my Guillow's S.E.5 build.  They really do stick out like small rivet heads.  Saved me a lot of time and headache on trying to simulate rivets the old fashion way of using pins or glue drops.

The second photo shows their product - # 84304 - that will make "silvering" disappear.  Because their ad for this product is more narrow and somewhat smaller, it can easily be confused with their "Magic non-toxic" setting solution seen just below.  This is what I was explaining in my previous posts.  However, upon carefully reading the use of this product, it really boils down to common sense of: first applying a clear coat of paint over the finished surface (this includes the color paints as well).  The clear coat covers over all of those tiny microscopic holes & irregularities that are a natural product of almost any finished  surface.  These irregularities are so tiny, that you would literally need a microscope to see them.  But they're there and will fill up with equally tiny air pockets and this in turn, will suspend the decal over the surface.  This tiny suspended space between the decal and the finished surface is what gives the decals a "haze" that is so commonly seen.  This haze is called "silvering." 

I know I explained all this previously, but it's worth noting that they emphasized to use a "special clear coat" of their product first before applying the decals, and right there was a dead give-away to what is really needed to be done.  Then they suggested after applying the decals over the dried surface, to use their special setting solutions and it went on from there.  So, it really gave me a chance to reevaluate all of this and simply use the clear coat of paint method, allow to dry thoroughly, followed by use of any decal setting solution with the application of the decals.

Finally, the last picture shows what I think will help.  They claim that this product will help eliminate all of the edges around the decals to disappear after the decal has been applied and dried.  So, this is the product I'll order and test.

All of this testing.... This is what slows down the build, but prevents frustration and more importantly, give a good model without the mistakes.  I'm hopeful that my postings will be passed on and taken into consideration for anyone reading them for future builds.

Wing saddle and flat surfaces coming up next.
 
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Reply #94 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 9:28am

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Quote:
If I'm reading his idea right, is to leave the bottom portion of the wing flat, but add the extra airfoil to the outer wing panels.  Does this mean I'll be increasing the fuselage around the saddle to compensate?  In another words, the flat bottom of the wing is mostly hidden inside the extra underside of the fuselage?

Gary - That was the line of thought I had. Your airfoil on the top of the wing is sized to fit the wing saddle exactly, so no change there. Adding the material to the lower portion of the airfoil to give it more authenticity can then be blended into the fuselage at the flat portion giving you more material to create the fuselage profile and more material to manage the wheel well activity.
Mike
 

Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it. (Salvador Dali 1904 - 1989)
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Reply #93 - Nov 15th, 2018 at 1:46pm

Skyediamonds   Offline
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Mike and Tom:

Good morning and thank you for your inputs.  Mike, yep, I'm just doing one opened gun bay, leaving the other "closed" by giving the viewer the chance to see how it looks opened and closed just by looking at either wing.  That, plus it really saves me a whole lot of extra work....  Which is probably the real reason but please don't tell.

Tom and Mike,

I thoroughly agree with you on the airfoil.  I have to  finish off just a couple of items on the wing frames, then, without gluing the two panels together, I'll trial fit them and see how it all plays out and determine what can be done.  Mike's idea sounds good. 

If I'm reading his idea right, is to leave the bottom portion of the wing flat, but add the extra airfoil to the outer wing panels.  Does this mean I'll be increasing the fuselage around the saddle to compensate?  In another words, the flat bottom of the wing is mostly hidden inside the extra underside of the fuselage?

My goal is to emulate the plastic modeler's displays by having the Mustang posed over a mirror to allow the viewer to see the details of the wheel wells.  That's when it dawned on me about the airfoils in the first place.   Hence, all that fuss about redesigning the outlines and detailing of the wells. 

 
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Reply #92 - Nov 15th, 2018 at 11:02am

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Looks like you've got plenty of leading edge for rounding out the airfoil on the outer panels. I like Mike's solution with leaving the center of the wing "as is" for mating to the fuselage.  A strip of balsa(sq stringer) on the bottom of the wing ribs could assist in giving the laminar section as well.  Sanded to shape.  Again, "take my advice and do as you please!" as my father used to say! Grin Cheesy Wink
 

If God is your Co-pilot...switch seats...
Your attitude will determine your altitude!- John Maxwell
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. Jn 8:32
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Reply #91 - Nov 15th, 2018 at 10:41am

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Gary - You could add material to the bottom of the airfoil to give it a more realistic appearance and leave the center section flat bottom to preserve the wing saddle and the overall appearance. On the other hand you could still modify the wing saddle but may put the wing too high in the fuselage, if I'm reading all this correctly. Great work by the way. I'm assuming you are only doing one gun bay?
Mike
 

Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it. (Salvador Dali 1904 - 1989)
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Reply #90 - Nov 14th, 2018 at 9:27pm

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Thank you Sky9, much appreciated.  Glad to know we're all in the same "plane."   I learned a lot of very good modeling techniques and ideas from reading scale plastic modeling magazines.  I've never strayed far from my first endeavors into this wonderful field. 

I've attended a couple of plastic modeling shows here in the Reno area and was both impressed and disappointed.  Impressed with the level of detail and the skills to pull off some of the most fantastic models I've ever seen in recent years.  Disappointed that they're so possessive of their craft.  When they found out that I also build wooden models, their attitude literally changed instantly from warm and friendly to icy cold and became extremely aloof. It's almost as if I "defected" and betrayed their exclusive hobby.  Still, I keep reading many of their plastic model magazines to keep up with the latest techniques, skills, styles, kits, new ways of painting to give that model a more realistic look and the list goes on.

I'm now in the process of finishing off the wing frame.

The first picture shows the frame in its rough stage.  I haven't fabricated the flaps.  Since this is strictly a display model, weight considerations were not a factor and therefore to simplify things I decided to simply go with solid balsa.  Notice the solid blocked wingtips.  The plans call for stringers to extend from the wings out to the tips. 

The second picture shows me carving out the excess balsa block to the wingtips.  To accurately gauge how much to shave off before sanding, I simply flipped over the frame to reveal the Guillow's wingtip part and followed the outline from there. One really smart move here, I decided to rough out the wingtips and sand them down as close to the outlines as possible before gluing the two separate wing halves together.  This reduced a lot of stress on the fragile frame and made sanding much easier.  This picture shows the separate wing panels placed on the table as if they were glued together.  I have yet to add the dihedral.

A good close up of the right wingtip and detail.

The last picture shows the fuselage on the wings.  Darn, it's really starting to look like a "Stang!"

Question or feedback guys:  The Guillow's wings are Clark Y airfoil and therefore, they have flat undersides.  Should I add some airfoil underneath and add some thickness to the wing?  Potential problem is the fit to the fuselage which is designed for a flat-bottomed wing.   This translates to a possibility of the wings protruding outside the fuselage outline on the underside. 

I could possibly raise the saddle.......

Or, round out the leading edges to a more symmetrical shape to create the illusion of a laminar flow.... 


 
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