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How to build model airplanes >> Display/Static Models >> Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
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Message started by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 6:42pm

Title: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 6:42pm
Good afternoon guys,

I'm going to be modeling a Guillow's P-51D for my daughter.  It was her idea and she insisted on it.  I tried to talk her out of it.  Lord knows, I really tried, but she wouldn't have anything else but that "D" model Mustang.  Sooo.... after looking at all the build sites on S&T, I've decided to open up a new topic.   I'm going to start off by doing just what I've always done prior to building a model.  Research.  This time, I'd like to finish it in natural metal.  But instead of painting it silver and finishing it off with marking pens delineating panel outlines, rivet details, hatches and so forth,  I'm going to try something new.  I'm going to try covering it with chrome vinyl that is similar to "Flight Metal" or plumber's chrome-finished duct tape.  If all else fails, I'll probably resort to painting it overall silver and use marking pens.....  The enclosed pictures show the Mustang in its natural metal finish.  What a lot of people don't realize is, although the fuselage and tail structures were left in natural metal.  The wings, save for the leading and trailing edges which were left in their natural metal state,  were puttied over and painted silver; photo # 2 showing the Mustang in a left banking turn revealing the wings is a good example.  The rudder and elevators were fabric and painted with silver as well.  So my goal, with your inputs is to produce a Mustang that will appear with a highly polished metal finish.  Specifically, I'd like to model this after Big Beautiful Doll (my daughter's idea).  Any inputs, comments or suggestions, (moral support) will definitely be welcomed.  Gary (Skye)
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yeah, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 6:54pm
To start:  research is over (see how fast that was?).  Truth be told, everyone knows all about Mustangs.  I decided to make the Guillow's kit as accurate as (reasonably) possible.  For those who have seen my S.E.5 and Wright Bros' Flyer builds, you know how "reasonably" that can be.  It's probably better classified as OCD, but we won't go there..... ;D  My research has lead me to obtain some very accurate 3-view drawings.  To my surprise, the Guillow's Mustang came pretty close in scale fidelity.  The fuselage cross section only needed to be enlarged from the front of the canopy forward to the nose, whereas the rest of the fuselage to the tail remained spot-on.  Even the vertical tails matched up perfectly.  Other than the forward fuselage cross sections, the curvature of the belly from the air scoop was much sharper on the Guillow's kit than the 3-views. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yeah, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:00pm
As can be seen from these photos and previous ones, the forward fuselage cross sections needs to be enlarged.  As stated at the beginning, I intend to cover it using chrome vinyl.  This meant use of strips of 1/16" balsa with a combination of infill and straight liminations on top to give the fuselage surface a foundation to which to attach the chrome vinyl.  The thickness of laminationed balsa strips should help make up for the difference in cross sections and thereby allowing me to skip any complicated cutting and enlarging the fuselage formers.  At least that's the theory.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yeah, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:10pm
As in most of my previous builds, it's always a good idea to practice on scrap or proof-of-concepts.  In this case, I fabricated a scratched section of a "typical" fuselage to try out this "new" chrome vinyl.  I had read numerous articles and reviewed dozens of build threads that to achieve good results, required lots of sweat and preparation of the surface to a smooth glass-like finish.  I finished off the ends of the "practice" fuselage by using different wood fillers and primers.  However, I purposely left the center section bare balsa but sanded smooth, just for comparison purposes.   You can easily see the strips of balsa wood planks.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yeah, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:17pm
For my experiment, I purchased what is called "pounce wheels" from MicroMark.  Over the past few years I've bought dozens of really neat stuff from them, such as: rivet decals (they really stick out like miniature rivets), decal solutions, small punch & die sets,  and they've never disappointed me.  In this case, I read in their catalog that these "pounce wheels" come in different sizes (scales) & can be used to simulate rivets.  Wow!  What a great short cut to making rivets.  In this (obviously staged) picture, they really don't show up well next to the X-Acto knife and scrap fuselage and the roll of chrome vinyl.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yeah, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:20pm
The technique in this case is to run the pounce wheel over the backside of the chrome vinyl using a metal straight edge.  Then peel off the sticky backing from the vinyl and affix the section to the fuselage.  Here, the pounce wheel shows up a little bit better. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yeah, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:28pm
Let's see the results.  Aha!  success!  I tried different means of riveting including double riveting to simulate panels that overlap each other as well as panels that simply butt against each other.  On the latter, I would've painted flat black that portion where the two panels meet in order to blank out any signs of light-colored balsa from peeking out.  Anyone notice something else?  Before going to my next post, see if you can distinguish anything different about how the chrome vinyl is covering the scrap fuselage.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yeah, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:31pm
Here's a double mind-blowing post:  First, is a close-up of the riveting details that were produced from the pounce wheel and ....secondly, the chrome vinyl went on smooth over the bare sanded balsa.  In another words, I just might (possibly, conceivably, hopefully) skip the tedious filling, sanding, filling in again, sanding again, priming and then sanding some more.  Just go straight to covering with vinyl. It does seem thick enough to allow for such imperfections of the underlying surfaces. Hmmmm  At least, I have optimism .....   One thing I did notice, is that I'll have to handle the chrome vinyl with kid's gloves or something close to it.  It does tend to scratch easily.  All inputs here would be greatly appreciated.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yeah, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:36pm
The build commences....

On the last picture, you can see how I reduced the curvature of the belly scoop to the fuselage.  This is easily seen by comparing the plans with the actual model laid on top.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 14th, 2018 at 7:05am
Not bad....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 14th, 2018 at 7:09am
If anyone noticed:  The cockpit coaming as depicted on the model plans can be misleading.  It shows what appears to be an instrument paneled shape part # B8 to be glued at a slight angle just behind the front windshield and the Free Flight Balance Point. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 14th, 2018 at 7:17am
As noted in my previous post, former B8 is actually only used to support the cockpit coaming outline and not the instrument panel.  The instrument panel itself is tucked under the coaming in a more vertical position.  To rectify this, I knew that some kind of outline of former # B8 still needed to be there to which the planks of balsa glued to the outside forming the "skin" of the fuselage to be attached for maintaining the fuselage contour up to where it ends under the front windshield in a slight curvature.  So to help get around this, I simply laminated strips of small 1/16" square balsa around the same former B8 to get the exact shape.  To obtain the length of the 1/16' strips.  I simply "rolled" former # B8 over the strips to achieve the desired length and cut off the ends where the rolling stopped. 

Why the lamination?  This is used to help "hold" the smaller 1/16' square strips of balsa in maintaining the correct curvature or shape of the fuselage.  Simply bending a strip or even a couple of strips to the curvature of the fuselage cross section, they will not hold that shape.  The strips will simply straighten out.  Yes, they'll be slightly bent afterward, but they won't be in the exact shape desired.  Laminating them together will solve that problem by forcing the strips to retain the curvature of the former # B8.  Does all this make sense?

In another words, there absolutely had to be some sort of support to which the planks of balsa forming the outside "skin" of the fuselage can be attached, as they come to the end under the front windshield and still leave room to tuck under the instrument panel.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jun 14th, 2018 at 10:42am
If you're laminating 1/16" sq balsa strips won't that make the shape 1/8" too big for a proper fit? Wouldn't the use of 1/32"X1/16" strips laminated be better, but still 1/16" too big sitting on the outside of former #B8?  Just thinking outloud here!
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 14th, 2018 at 10:51pm
Tom,

Really appreciated your "thinking outloud" and your response.  I took the dimensions of the laminated woods into consideration.  As mentioned previously, I measured that the front end of Guillow's model is too slim compared to the front end of the 3-views.  To make up the difference, instead of covering with tissue -which has almost no thickness- I hope to compensate by gluing on  1/16" planks of balsa all around the existing sized formers and thereby increase the overall thickness on top of the nose ( & overall dimensions around the front fuselage) and match up where the laminated 1/16" squared balsa strips are located.  Still, I figured I was also going to add some additional thickness to the nose just by virtue of applying filler where needed to help smooth out the edges between planks.  I also (hoped) figured that it's better to have slightly too much, in which I could sand down, than not enough where it might be more difficult to add wood and build it up.  Or, should I have gone the other route?  Open to suggestions/inputs.  Thanks.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:10pm
Just removed the laminated strips from former B8....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:11pm
Sized the laminated woods against the fuselage to trim off the ends
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:11pm
Sounds like you have it well in hand.  Didn't realize you were looking to add to the girth of the fuselage there... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

I hate planking. It's so cumbersome, so when I can make a paper template and cut some balsa to that shape then soak it and wrap the area to be filled till dry then glue in place.  My lazy way to fill when I don't mind adding some area to a model.
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:12pm
Then trimmed the ends off for a nice fit 

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:14pm
This view really shows to good effect the outlined cockpit coaming where the instrument panel should fit inside.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:17pm
Then added the extra stringers around the area for (possibly) additional strength needed for the balsa planking.  I'm thinking of doing both infill and the overlap method of planking; not sure of the proper description.  It's here where I may get hung up on the cockpit detailing.  Unlike the S.E. 5, I added all the extra stringers and they might be getting in my way of gaining access to the interior for detailing.  But then again, I could fabricate the "drop box" method....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Kittyfritters on Jun 25th, 2018 at 7:17pm
Making a commercial scale model kit more accurate and detailed than it comes from the box is a task for someone with OCD.  I appreciate the effort you are putting into this one.

There are many compromises in making a commercial kit.  Details are left off so that the average modeler can muster the perseverance to finish one.  Areas and moments are altered to provide flyability, and of course, there is always the limitation caused by the quality of the drawings used as reference for the plans.  Kits produced by the same manufacturer at approximately the same time can vary widely in accuracy.  Some kits in a line can be lauded as being among the finest representation of an aircraft available in a flying model while others can look like they were referenced from pre-WW2 solid model plans.

There have been kit producers that have made carefully researched, referenced (and expensive) museum quality scale kits.  Some of their plans are available on the Internet and they are works of art and examples of dedication.  Many were so staggeringly detailed that many modelers were probably scared of starting one.  I don't know if any of these manufacturers are still in business.  To make any money in this business you have to appeal to the widest possible audience.

Which leaves us with modelers like you who have the perseverance, dedication and skills to "clean up" existing kits.  I love what you are doing with this one.  Keep up the good work!

Howard
(kittyfritters)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Craig 3 on Jun 26th, 2018 at 6:13am
I'm going to love watching this one. I like this kit anyway- I've only built it once :) but I lightened it up and made it fly pretty well for a Guillows kit.

Twenty years ago, I built a Comet Ercoupe for my dad, as he was in the middle of restoring one. His was polished, so I needed to duplicate that. Now mind you, I wasn't a stick & tissue builder then, so it wasn't a thing of beauty or great detail, but it made a nice thing to hang in his shop. I covered it with aluminum tape from the NAPA store, over a skin of poster paper. It's been through an assortment of grandchildren, drops, and a lot of time for something a bit ephemeral to be in a shop, but I think the wreckage might survive. I'l try to find it and get a pic or two!

Great idea on the pounce wheel!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Craig 3 on Jun 26th, 2018 at 6:14am
And Howard, that's "CDO." You gotta put the letters in alphabetical order or it grates!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Kerak on Jun 26th, 2018 at 9:26am
"collateralized debt obligation (cdo)"?  Guess you know what you're talking about, Craig.

Neal

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Craig 3 on Jun 26th, 2018 at 9:31am
Neal, there's no need to bring up how I finance my vintage kit addiction! :)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Kerak on Jun 26th, 2018 at 9:36am
Well said, Craig.  ;D  And all the kits I've acquired over the years...that's definitely OCD...that's what my wife tells me.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Neal

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jun 27th, 2018 at 7:01am
And my wife keeps telling me that my plan collection of about 30 years is  evidence of something, OCD was not mentioned but keeps asking me when will you ever have time to finish all those builds. I do thin the collection periodically but the really good vintage stuff still gets looked at as next up build.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:11am
Gary - I'm following along and bookmarked for future reference. Great work and looking forward to another great build and tutorial.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Craig 3 on Jun 27th, 2018 at 12:05pm
Gary, here’s my one try at bright metal- Comet Ercoupe. I might have to rebuild it- it looks like everything that’s gotten knocked off over the years is piled in the cockpit. Sort of like the prototype A/C was. It’s arguably as straight as that one was, too...
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jun 27th, 2018 at 6:10pm
Interesting Ercoupe...what did you use for covering?
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Craig 3 on Jun 27th, 2018 at 6:29pm
Aluminum tape from the NAPA store over poster board.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 3rd, 2018 at 2:45pm
Guys,
I finally got permission from WW2aircraft.net to post these images from their site.  It's here, that I was able to find the much-elusive information of the wing; now much is puttied over and what is left in its natural metal state.   I had a little bit of a set back.  The chrome vinyl didn't adhere very well with the passage of time and a little heat (the work shop was about 75-80 degrees) and the results ended up bubbling on the surface of my practice fuselage.  I'll take a few photos to show.  In the meantime, I've ordered the more expensive "Flite Metal" and I'll try that on my proof-of-concept fuselage.  I'll also take some photos and share the ressults with you.  The duct tape is a good idea and worth considering.  I've heard lots of "pros" and "cons" on their use.  I'm in the process of making my own instruments for the panel (like I did on my S.E.5) and having them reduced to scale. That's a part of my OCD (hmmm, seems like that is going around a lot here lately).   
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 12th, 2018 at 12:53pm
Well gentlemen,

Just had a minor setback.  The original chrome vinyl that I was using as my primary covering has revealed itself under slightly warmer temperatures.  It was found to bubble out and it was described as being "gassed out."   

Sooo, I decided to send away for the more expensive "Flite Metal."  They advertised that it's more flexible than the duct tape method and thus, more easy to work around compound curves.  It has been shipped a couple of days ago and I'm waiting for its arrival.  Once it's in my hands, I'll try out a few cuts and see what happens and posts the results.  I hope this will explain the reason for my delays in posting.   

Any suggestions will be welcomed.  Maybe I should've used a thin film of say, white glue spread out over the frame and then tack down the chrome vinyl? 

I'm hoping too, that this Flite Metal may have a slightly different metallic tone than the chrome vinyl.  If it does, then I'm hoping I can use both to help break up the monotone structure with different panels, yet still retain that highly polished metal look.  Whattya say?

In the meantime, I'm in the process of infilling.  My first attempt at this "new art form" and it's proving itself to be a challenge in terms of cutting strip after mind-numbing strip of balsa to fill in between gaps by the (seemingly) hundreds.  Wow!  Talk about needing patience.....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jul 12th, 2018 at 7:40pm
Skye...did you seal the balsa under the aluminum tape?  Just wondering.
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 13th, 2018 at 3:54pm
Tom,

No.  I only sealed the ends of my scrap fuselage as part of my experiment as how the chrome vinyl covering would work.  I purposely did this to test the results.  Notice carefully, that despite the ends being sealed, it appears that the surfaces that were sealed were also affected.  I think would I should do is try to limit the chrome vinyl to just the sealed surfaces and see what happens.  In the meantime, just FYI: I received the more expensive Flite Metal and the instructions emphasized that the surface -especially the wood surfaces- must be sealed to a glass-like consistency.  So, this only reinforces the concept of sealing.  Sheesh..... Was hoping I'd save myself a lot of extra sanding and sealing and priming & get outta that one.   The experiments must go on!!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 1st, 2018 at 3:42pm
Okay guys,
Still infilling the model.  This infilling is truly a test of one's patience and every once in awhile, my eyes cross. I'm almost finished with the first layer.  Just have a couple more infills to go.  Then I'll sand it all down smooth.  Once that's done, I'll start on the cockpit interior.  I figured that I'd try to keep the sawdust to a minimum from the interior between the 1st and 2nd layers.  My plans are to add the 2nd layer from the nose to just behind the cockpit areas to help maintain true scale fidelity.  I've enclosed a couple of photos to show the stage where the model currently is.

I should add that the areas around the cockpit are purposely left exposed to allow access for interior detailing.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Aug 1st, 2018 at 9:22pm
Looking good Skye...I want to do a P-51B or C in the near future.  I'll be keeping an eye on this one as you detail the cockpit!  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 8:46am
Great progress and I'm betting this will be another on the par with the SE5. I've seen your instrument production methods and must say you have unbelievable patience.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 12:25pm
NB and Sky9,
Good morning and I thank you both for your words of encouragement.  I'm nearing the stage of where I'll have to start on the interior and go from there.  That Mustang is crammed with dials and instruments all over the place and for such a small area, it'll be s challenge just to get half of them in. 

I'll also be treading waters I've never done before; the infilling and the use of either (or both) chrome vinyl and Flite Metal for the exterior.  As previously posted, the wings offer the most interesting aspect of the whole "natural metal" look that I'm seeking, since they were puttied over most of the area with an exception of the leading and trailing edges. 

Patience is from learning how to stay calm after raising two rambunctious, overly excitable, very active, hair-pulling, marvelous and loving,.,,,,, (ahem) ,,,,,
kids.    Daughter is now a surgical nurse practitioner and my son as of this writing is in Sao Paulo, Brazil, helping them to reestablish their computer network systems.   So, I must've done something right.....  :P

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 12:54pm
Done something right??? Sounds like amazing success to me and staying calm, I'll work on it but at my age, well maybe some success. Great work and I'm watching and appreciating.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 3:34pm
Mike,

Thank you!!  Really needed to hear that!!  I'm now 69 going on 45 acting 35 going on 10.  I sometimes drive my wife up the wall with my behavior -in a good (sort of) way.   Sky9 will tell you my trip to where I am now is not without peril.   Almost died twice: 2000 from cancer (was given only a 30% chance of survival) and March of this year (from pneumonia, where they had to surgically insert a feeding tube).

I thought I'd show some "before" and "after" sanding shots of my just-finished 1st layer of planking.  Photographically speaking, the close ups of the belly scoop areas really show the difference between sandings.  Here's where I drive my wife up the wall.  I just finished sanding the 1st layer while wearing my good slacks before going to work.  She'll have to have them either washed (again) or sent to the cleaners.  You'd think I would've changed clothes before commencing to one of the more "dirtier" parts of modeling..... Nah...     8-)




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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 5th, 2018 at 4:52pm
Followed New Builder's advice and ordered some instruments from JTec.  Hoping to save myself a lot of building time.  The S.E.5 was a challenge in that each instrument was custom made specific to that biplane.  Whoa.  With the Mustang, I figured I'd be working on those instruments well into the following year. 

In the meantime, I'll be doing a bit more research into Big Beautiful Doll and working on my experiments for the vinyl coverings and will post my results.  I came across some amazing pictures of BBD and I noted the small holes for the cooler are painted white to match the checkered patterns.  I've seen other photos of the same holes left in natural metal.  Interesting.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Craig 3 on Aug 5th, 2018 at 5:00pm
I can't wait to see your interior detail work on this one. Give your attention to detail, I know it's gonna be a stunner!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 5th, 2018 at 9:44pm
Craig,
Good evening.  LoL....
Given how you've done such a masterful job on the DGA-3 "Mr. Mulligan," I know I'll be under the very watchful eye of a very experienced and knowledgeable modeler.  Oy!  I can feel the pressure now...   Just hope to do the best I can.  If you've got any suggestions I'd love to hear 'em.

Or, any comments will also be welcomed.  This is great.

Thank you!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:55am
Give it the good ol Gary effort and it will be another masterpiece. Watching with enthusiasm.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 10th, 2018 at 10:05pm
Mike, and fellow members: thank you for your support.  I've finished (tentatively) my experiment on chrome vinyl and the Flite Metal and its really quite different between the two.  Chrome vinyl is just what the name implies, a vinyl that is chrome covered (or colored).  Flite Metal on the other hand is truly a heavy aluminum foil on sticky back paper.   

I've filled in my faux fuselage and primed it.  Afterward, I sanded it smooth.  Granted, what I'm about to reveal, is that I didn't closely follow the instructions of Flite Metal and they should be given the benefit of doubt in this case. 

I'm also going to post some of the results in Cafe' as part of an open-ended discussion for everyone to participate.  So, if you've got an idea or know more about Flite Metal, please feel free to jump right in either here on this thread or in the Cafe.' 

I'll start with the advantages and disadvantages on my next post.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 10th, 2018 at 10:43pm
I'm starting off with chrome vinyl here.  It's very easy to work with.  It comes with its own sticky backing which you peel off and then stick the vinyl to wherever you wish.  It's very pliable, soft, you can install rivets by using a pounce wheel (a small wheel with spikes) on the back before peeling off the backing.  Use just a straight edge to help line up the pounce wheel and press relatively hard down on the surface and you get great results.  They appear tiny bumps, but taken altogether, they can easily pass for small rivets.  Just know ahead of time, that both chrome vinyl and Flite Metal requires that you cut each panel separately and apply them from the rear of the fuselage forward to the nose and from the root of the wings out to the tips.

Photo # 10 shows that I've applied a coating of primer on top of the wood filler and sanded both very smooth down to using 400 wet and dry sandpaper.  I purposely left the middle exposed balsa.

Photo # 15 shows me using the pounce wheel on the back to produce the simulated rivets.  The pounce wheel can easily be purchased through MicroMark's vast catalog of modeling tools and accessories and I highly recommend using them.  They're not cheap, but you get what you paid for and from my own personal experiences, their products is of very good to excellent quality.  If you can find a similar product through say, Harbor Freight or other hardware stores, or an arts and crafts store, then by all means please check out their products as well.

Photo # 5 shows the results of the chrome vinyl applied after peeling off the sticky backing.  Be careful here and start working out the bubbles from the center outward.  This is where the vinyl shines.  You can easily peel it off in certain parts to  help realign the patch of vinyl and press down again.  Its very soft and easy to the touch.  Just make sure you worked out all the bubbles and also makes sure that the balsa wood grain is truly filled in.  Better still, use say, plastic or anything that doesn't have any open pores or grain and the vinyl will stick just fine. 

Photo # 9 shows its main disadvantage.  Bubbling or 'gassing out."  Its susceptible to even mild heat (room temps were between 75-80 degrees.  Admittedly I didn't fill in the whole faux fuselage and also didn't prime the ends at this point.  So, its really important to make sure that the surface that its to be applied is thoroughly filled, sanded, primed, and sanded again really smooth and glassy.  Make sure its really clean too. 

Photo # 8 shows the leftover strip of vinyl casually draping over my fingers.  Very pliable and soft.  No issues here and no worries about sharp edges to cut fingers. 

Photo # 4 shows that the chrome vinyl (and Flite Metal) can easily be peeled back after application.  The surfaces after peeling back the chrome vinyl generally remains relatively smooth and maybe only requires just a touch of 400 wet-n-dry sandpaper.  More on the Flite Metal later.

Overall, aside from the potential bubbliing, chrome vinyl is easy and forgiving to work with for people like me who never has done this sort of thing before and has ten thumbs. 

I'll post my results on Flite Metal tomorrow.  You'll be in for a treat and some surprises.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:56am
WoW Skye...with that chrome you'll have a Reno Racer finish on that P-51!!!  The rivets look real good.   [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 11th, 2018 at 3:55pm
Slky9:
Thank you very much!  Wait 'til you see this next installment on the Flite Metal.  Then we all can compare.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 11th, 2018 at 4:09pm
This installment is about the more expensive alternative called: Flite Metal.  They advertise as THE way to go in modeling natural metal finishes.  They also claim that it won't "bubble" up or "gas out" as in chrome vinyl and can stand temperatures up to 375 degrees, which makes for having models on display in the bright sunlight in the middle of August a nonissue.  Before proceeding forward: I'd like to say a disclaimer: I didn't follow the Flite Metal exact instructions because they make use of masking tapes and such their videos don't have captioning, which for me, makes it very difficult.  I'd like to ask for volunteers in this area and then the presentation would be more fair for Flite Metal as well as for the previous thread of chrome Vinyl.  That being said, on with the "show."

First off, Flite Metal is about twice as expensive as chrome vinyl and you get about half as much material to boot.  So, you could look at it as if it's about 3 1/2 to four times more expensive as chrome vinyl.  However, for those who wish to have a true natural metal finish, or to achieve a particular detailing that is absolutely necessary for that ultimate finish, well, expense is just one of those things we all pay a price to achieve our goal of modeling perfection.

Flight Metal arrived via mail in  a very sturdy tube that is thick enough to withstand a truck to run over it.  It was also difficult to open.  The first two feet of the twelve feet total in the roll was ragged; meaning the surfaces were scratched, had deep scores, ripples, and generally had anything but a smooth surface to which one would expect for such a product, especially considering the heavy mailing tube..  I relayed this io the folks at Flite Metal and they simply said "That happens once in awhile."   Hmmmm

Okay, having said that, let's go onto the next post with the product itself and the means to which I used to apply and from there we can compare.  I will also summarize my findings in the Cafe' section for the benefit of those who haven't scrolled through all of the builds.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 11th, 2018 at 4:26pm
Flite Metal, unlike the chrome vinyl, is truly a thick aluminum foil.  Its real, honest-to-God metal.  **However, they both look the same from a viewpoint of seeing highly polished metal surfaces.  Upon peeling off the backing paper, the adhesion on the back of the foil is truly strong.  Once it's stuck onto the surface, it's REALLY stuck! Now I understand why it won't bubble or gas out.  That Flite Metal is gonna stay wherever its stuck.  Be very careful when handling the material once the backing is peeled off, or it'll stick to your fingers and really mess up your plans to locate the cut panel into place on your model. 

One of the suggestions that was mentioned was to take some fine grade steel wool and rub it over the surface to achieve a more muted affect as opposed to that shiny, highly polished look.  They also mention that to do this method to varying degrees such that the final results will have different metal panels being able to easily seen from one another. 

Photo # 11 shows my limited effort to use fine grade steel wool.  The top portion shows the natural state of Flite Metal and the bottom shows my small "haze" finished after rubbing the surface with steel wool.  Personally, I'm going for the whole highly polished look on my Mustang, but this technique is very useful for those who wish to impart the illusion of different panels being placed right next to each other and gives the overall metallic finish a more of a dynamic look instead of a near-monochromatic look of all panels literally looking alike such that they'r practically indistinguishable. 

In all fairness, I should've cut out both pieces and place them on my faux fuselage to help give them a true representation of the different panels.  I used the small pounce wheel in between to help visually separate the two pieces and to help give it some scale.

By the way, that scratch mark is just one of many "imperfections" that were present on the surface of the  roll when I received it in the mail.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 11th, 2018 at 4:33pm
This is where Flite Metal truly "shines."  Its a wee bit brighter in that metallic highly polished look.  The amount of effort to achieve the rivet details isn't as difficult to produce as on the vinyl.  You can also see the jagged edges of Flite Metal to really illustrate that we're really dealing with metal here.  The vinyl appears "soft" by comparison.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 11th, 2018 at 4:40pm
In this photo # 8, I purposely had the leftover strip of vinyl draped over my fingers to show its softness and its true "vinyl" material that is chrome covered.  No stress, no metal "feel" or anything to suggest otherwise.

Have you ever cut a really thick aluminum foil say from a disposable backing pan?  You know what that leftover strip looks like?  The metal is curled all over and "springy" like a real strip of thin metal?  Well, this is what that strip of Flite Metal looks like.  We're really dealing with thin sheets of metal -in this case, aluminum foil with a sticky paper backing.

For those who wish to know.... YES, the edges are very sharp!  So handle either the piece you wish to install on the model or the leftover strip very carefully.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 11th, 2018 at 4:45pm
Can they both be removed?  Yes.  Can they both be relocated and reused again?  Short answer, no.

You can see in this illustration on photo # 4, they can both be peeled back.  Flite Metal can be peeled, but it takes more effort due to its more powerful adhesion.

The next photo # 3 shows the comparison of reusing them after they were peeled off and reapplied.  On the bottom is Flite Metal and the top is chrome vinyl.  You can easily see what happened to the Flite Metal.  When pulling back, it tends to ripple as the adhesive backing is truly fighting me in peeling it off.   By the way, this Flite Metal also took off a portion of the primer, and a small amount of the underlying balsa surface.  Boy does this stuff stick!!  So it really pays to be very careful applying Flite Metal and to make sure that it's exactly where you want it to go.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 11th, 2018 at 4:47pm
Alrighty:

To summarize:  chrome vinyl is more economical.  Its' a bit thicker than Flite Metal.  The materials are not true metal but a vinyl with a chrome coating.  It is easy to work with.  No sharp edges.  You can produce rivets on the backside by using a pounce wheel or tapping each rivet with a dull pin, if that's your methodology.  It can easily be removed and replaced. 

Disadvantage: it has a tendency to bubble or gas out in a heated environment even if the temperatures are only within 75-80 degrees.  Over a time, like many older films, it may bubble and sag.  Thus, forcing the modeler to initiate some hasty repairs.  Thus, it might be considered an "indoors" film for models.  Sealing the surfaces is a "must."  But this also applies to Flite Metal as well.  Make sure the surface is well sealed from any wood grains and pores and glossy finished.  Any blemishes will show through so use of a tack cloth or a good rub down is a great idea.

Flite Metal:
True aluminum foil with paper backing.  It can be "riveted" from the backing like the chrome vinyl using the pounce wheel or any other method of choice.  The adhesive is very strong.  No chance of bubbling whatsoever.  The advertisement says Flite Metal can withstand temps up to 375 degrees in sunlight.  Its very thin and rivets beautifully.  The edges are very sharp and the instructions encourages one to fold the edges prior to installing each panel to avoid getting cut.  At this point, I'm not clear as to the complete instructions and will follow up on this post as things become more clear.  It is about twice as expensive as chrome vinyl and many modelers swear by it.  The reviews have been somewhat mixed.  Some modelers complain that they haven't received the Flite Metal on the promised date and sometimes the first two feet of the rolls are ragged (mine were too). 

Overall, it comes down to a personal choice.  Once the Flite Metal comes in contact with the surface, pray that its the exact place where it is desired, because you'll be stuck.  It can be removed, but it will take some of the underlying primer coat and anything else with it, necessitating a refinishing.

The instructions also suggest making use of tape, whatever that means.  I'm working on this aspects of the Flite Metal and as soon as I've worked out the details, I'll  update this post.

Both have a highly polished metal finish that cannot be duplicated by any paints currently available.  Both really look like metal.

Hope this all helps.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 19th, 2018 at 7:58pm
Alrighty: I've done a bit of work on the exterior of the fuselge and started on the interior.  I'm now double-planking the nose area.  This was done for the main reason of increasing the diameter of the fuselage from the front windshield to the nose to bring up the Guillow's profile more closely to that of the scale outline depicted in the 3-views.  I opted for this method instead of increasing the diameters of the formers by cutting them up and then enlarging them with added bits of wood like I did with my S.E.5.  It was with this in mind, that I made the laminations to the front portion of the cockpit coaming a bit thicker forming a "lip" of you will.  The double planking was then butted up against the laminated woods as seen in the first series of photos.   The unforeseen added benefits were: smoother overall surface such that the formers disappeared under the second layer of planking, which makes for little wood filler when the time comes for finishing (Now I understand why many of models of wooden clipper ships were done with double planking).  The other benefit was added strength.  I was then able to cut away the top keel from the front cockpit coaming. paving away for a clean instrument panel without having to make a cutout on top to clear the keel.

Photo # 65 shows the difference between the infilling of balsa as seen in the lower right portion of the fuselage picture and the second layer on top.  It also shows the top keel embedded within the "lip" of the cockpit coaming prior to my removing it with a # 11 blade.  The second layer shown here is before sanding it down smooth as seen in the next photo # 70.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Aug 19th, 2018 at 9:43pm
Gary,
Just remembered something from my old rc days.  On sheeted wings and fuselages we used to put small pin pricks in the surface to avoid the monokote/solarfilm etc.  Some how the pin pricks didn't damage the surface but allowed the balsa to breathe under the film so the film didn't bubble.  We also put holes in the wing ribs to avoid the same problem with sections of the wing bubbling under the cover.  It might work for your vinyl covering as well.
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 21st, 2018 at 11:26am
Tom,

That's an excellent idea!  I too remembered that about allowing the balsa to "breath" and thereby preventing the films to bubble.  I totally forgot about that.  Great!  I'll try it!  I've got the little pounce wheel that I use for embossing rivets into the chrome vinyl or Flite Metal.
Should be a snap to use over the sheeted balsa.  Thank you!  Loved that new website.  You really put out a lot of work and in shows.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 8:02am
Gary - This is truly going to be great and glad you are doing all this research and work and thank you for your effort. I know this is how you do things and the payoff for the rest of us is going to be a great help with future projects. I'm rethinking my Marcoux Bromberg project and it looks possible except the rivets were flush, any thoughts there?
Mike

PS - I saw they recommend using steel wool for burnishing, might try a purple Scotch Brite pad, is a little less aggressive and a bit finer weave.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Sep 20th, 2018 at 1:31pm
Good morning guys,

I apologize for my absence awhile.  Been to the air races here in Reno, Nevada and had several obligations to do.  While I was at the air races, had the honor to meet THE last aviator of the Tuskegee pilots.  His name is Lt. Bob Friend.  Truly a remarkable man and great guy.  Forgive me for including his photo.  It's not everyday this happens.

They also had a Mustang done up in highly polished natural metal and in his colors. 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Sep 20th, 2018 at 1:33pm
Lt. Bob Friend....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Sep 20th, 2018 at 1:34pm
Good morning guys,

I apologize for my absence awhile.  Been to the air races here in Reno, Nevada and had several obligations to do.  While I was at the air races, had the honor to meet THE last aviator of the Tuskegee pilots.  His name is Lt. Bob Friend.  Truly a remarkable man and great guy.  Forgive me for including his photo.  It's not everyday this happens.

They also had a Mustang done up in highly polished natural metal and in his colors. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by heywooood on Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:35pm
That's a great photo of a living legend. I saw that plane at our Gillespie show year before last maybe but did not have a chance to meet Lt. Friend.

I'm following your build of the BBD Mustang closely, Gary - I hope to put out a P-51 at some point down the line and have a keen interest in this covering material.

Reno and Oshkosh are on my list of things to do one of these days 


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Alfredo Arbe on Sep 21st, 2018 at 12:01pm
What a remarkable model!
I only can imagine all work involvolved!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Sep 21st, 2018 at 2:19pm
I remember reading in some modeling magazine years ago about a fellow modeler who built a FW-190 and instead if sheeting or filling the model structure with balsa he covered it in card stock panels that were shaped in the real metal panels of the real bird.  He did use a scoring tool to emboss the rivets on the reverse side before gluing the panels in place.  If I remember correctly he opened up the cowling as well to reveal the engine and machine guns and associated chutes etc. with a fully detailed cockpit!  I'm sure this will be of the same caliber Gary...keep up the great work.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 12:30pm
Sky9, Heyooood, Alfredo, and fellow members,

I'd like to thank Mr. Sky9 for that amazing coincidence of another modeler using card stock for his FW-190 and opening up the gun bays and cowl.  I'm about to post a few myself about the gun bays and also confess to my "slight" boo boo on the cockpit area.  Mr. Heywood, hope you'll draw some experience from my lessons learned.  Alfredo, thank you for your astute observations.  You're correct, there's lots of work in the details.  I'm going to start off posting on the gun bay details first.  I'm also going to get excruciatingly close with each step taken to achieve what I think should pass for credible results.  So, this may take a "few" steps and become a long road to the end.

As with all super-detailing models, comes lots (and lots) of research.  I was fortunate enough to have members from other aviation websites help out with the necessary information and photos needed to replicate the gun bays, as this is an often overlooked item by many modelers, unless they're extremely detailed-oriented (read that, crazy) as I am.  I'd like to start by giving credit to "Wurger" of Poland.  He's a senior member of WW2Aircraft.net for providing me with the necessary photos of the gun bay details and the instructions that were posted inside one of the hatches giving information on how to bore scope the machine guns (Yep, I intend to make a decal of those instructions and post them inside one of the hatches too).

Finally, I hope all of my previous experiments with chrome vinyl and Flite Metal have helped shed some light on both of these two excellent materials.  If you should have any further questions or comments, please feel free to post 'em and I'll address them as fast as I can.  All this might partially explain my absence from posting and sticking my nose into other's posts as well.

Have said a mouthful, I begin with the outlines of the intended gun bay.  I'm only going to open one on the right wing and leave the other on the left wing closed, but with markings to show the gun bay hatches.

As with all things, it's an illusion to create a model in almost exact form as the original full sized article.  I'm using proportions and what just "looks about right" as my guide.  To use exact measurements would be ultimately self-defeating and even painful.  I may be slightly off-balance (crazy) but I'm still walking straight up (I think).

The first thing is to use the photo references that were kindly passed onto me by Mr. Wurger,  as well as using my 4-view accurate drawings of the "D" version Mustang as my outline and guides to follow the gun bays.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 12:54pm
From these outlines and measurements as accurately as reasonably be obtained, I drew out the final sketch as close as possible in proportion to the wing as well as maintaining scale fidelity.  From the outlines of the hatches, I'll be fabricating the gun bays within the boundaries and (hopefully) be accurate.

From these outlines, I cut out on paper to use as a template for the plastic sheeting that will be used to fabricate the gun bay.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 1:13pm
I started out using the far end of the gun bay as my reference point.  In this case, the last rib that was closest to the gun bay.  From there, I cut out a piece of plastic that was exact size to the rib.  The first picture shows the finished rib.  The next two photos show the steps taken to achieve the results.

Next, I punched out a small circular "hatch" to the ribbed shaped end.  This is easily seen in one of the previously posted pictures of the full sized aircraft.  I then used a dull needle to punch out a few rivets on the backside.  From there, I glued this circular hatch to the ribbed shaped end.

Next, I cut out a large piece of plastic to be used as the "floor" of the gun bay.  I elected to use Evergreen plastic sheet classified as "wood sided" for small doll houses with grooves as to help give it a bit of "character."

Note: On the last picture, you can easily see how I've already modified the wing spars to accept the flaps and ailerons.  The existing wing spar from the Guillow's kit goes right through the gun bay.  So, I had to rearrange a few details.  The wing spars to the flaps and ailerons were somewhat of a challenge as they taper from the root to the tips.  I cut out the back ends of the ribs to help me determine the thickness of the spars from the root to the tip.  I arranged the spars to overlap as the outlines called for the ailerons to be in a different place from the flaps.  Oh yes, I intend to deploy the flaps in the extended position. ....   8-)
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 1:18pm
Great detail Gary....most intriguing build.  I look forward to viewing your progress!  Keep up the great work.
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 1:32pm
Thank you sir.  It's a pleasure to get back in the "game."  Long absence makes a mind stale.  I promise not to disappoint.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 2:02pm
Again, using the provided photo as reference (I'll probably use this photo and a couple of others again every once in awhile to save our viewers from having to flip back to previous pages/ postings), I've cut out from a thick glossy piece of paper that is used by my bank as a desk mat.  When I asked for more, they strenuously objected to my reasoning behind why my request for additional mats.  Sheesh, some people.....

Anyway, I cut the glossy "mat" paper to be used as one of the "walls" to the gun bay containing bullets as well as to the separate gun area for the machine guns themselves.  In the latter case, I used my trusty punch-n-die set to punch out holes for the guns.  After the papers were cut out, the top lengths were folded over to wrap around the spars and to give the whole appearance of a smooth metal finish. 

I've always used glossy paper or plastic whenever possible.  It saves me a lot of trouble having to sand, fill up the wood grains, sand some more, use primer, sand again, refill if I see any imperfections or dents, sand..... 

The last picture shows a close up of my results so far.  You can easily see how I've had to extrapolate the sizes of ribs according to the taper of the wing and to help provide some means of support to the walls of the gun bay.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 2:13pm
Here, you can see how I'm comparing the rib F-9 to it's original location on the plans and over the "new" spar.  It's also here, that I am eyeballing how much to cut away to make room for the gun bay and leave just enough to support the back "wall" to the gun bay

This picture shows what's left of the rib.  It's not much, but as you can seem, I'm holding the back wall with a pair of tweezers just about to squeeze it in place for fitting.  This small piece will have to do to help me for the next step.

This is next step, is looking down the wing at table height and eyeballing how much taper I have to cut into the back wall to the gun bay.   
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 2:20pm
This is a unique perspective of looking at the results so far, but it also helps to know what is next series of steps for me. That weird looking reflection of "stacks" you see in the background is my bottle of water.  Goes to give you a sense of scale that I'm working down here.

As you can see, I've outlined what is necessary to cut away from the original shape of the rib that is cut from plastic as well as to taper it to meet with the rear spar and also to cut away to make room for the machine gun bullets to travel over to the guns themselves.

The grooves from the sheet of plastic shows up really good here.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:11pm
Alrighty;  Remember that rib I fitted in previous post?  I drew some lines on it to show me how much to cut away the plastic and to make some additional cuts for the bullet belts.  Well, I cut two pieces of plastic and laminated them together.  I also took one of the pieces and had an extra small "tab" bent over to help make this small riblet appear as if it was a solid piece of smooth aluminum.  Looking carefully, you can see the "two" sides of plastic as well as the small extra plastic bent over at the line.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:25pm
For the final end of the gun bay, I cut out another piece of plastic using the original rib as a template and X-Acto blade to trace around it.  This required a bit of patience and luck (maybe some skill) as I knew the blade would cut extremely close to the original piece and thereby saving me the hassle of trying to compensate for the difference is size if I used say a pen or pencil.  To duplicate some of the reinforcements seen on the aircraft, I cut out a small length from a corrugated sheet of plastic.  I originally purchased dozens of this sheets thinking that someday I would model a Ford Tri-Motor..... Nah..  So, I made use of one piece at least.

Because I could  not accurately judge the height of the floor from the plans, I simply held the cut out strip against the rib and measured how high the cut would be.    This way, the reinforcement "I" beams would overlap the floor area at the correct level. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:29pm
Thus far, I've been fitting most of the pieces into place and measuring them against each other as well as to the original ribs and plans.  Now I've glued most into place and started the painting process.

Hey, it's starting to really look like a gun bay now.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:32pm
Let's start adding the rest of the pieces and see what happens.

Oh ohh.  Close, but no cigar.  The small rib piece is not squared on with the gun bay.  Looking closely at the bottom portion, one can see that the thick part is pushing it out of alignment.  Soooo
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:37pm
It's back to the cutting board..

Much better fit.  I've also taken the liberty of adding some "metal" strips along the top of the spar/wall, just like the real one.

However, looking closely, there's still a little gap between the laminations.  We'll fix that, won't we?
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:45pm
A short piece of plastic.  Bend it ahead of time to avoid fingerprints on the paint.


A short shot of paint.

Voila'  Much better....

Note too, the "reinforcement pieces fit very well on the piece to the left, by overlapping the floor area.  Not 100% exact as the real thing, but close enough at this scale. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 3:49pm
The bullets in the bay were divided.  Sooo, another piece of plastic was cut, fitted and we'll see after a short break.  Oh, I know that suspense.  Sorry.  Have to work today.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 25th, 2018 at 12:45pm
Good morning to all,

Just a quick update.  I've somewhat finished the gun bay, but have to temporarily put the model on "hold" until the gardener's shed passes inspection.  I had to hide the model and all of the building materials in the hopes that the inspectors/owners won't notice.

However, I've not been idle.  I've been busy seeking out various markings & stencils of the aircraft and where to place them on the model.  I visited WW2Aircraft.net and their level of research, whereas I mentioned them before with documentation for the gun bay, they continue to amaze me with their repository of detailed information.  I've taken the time here to post just a few of their stencils for the "D" version of the Mustang series.  Anyone interested in truly outdoing themselves on their models of aircraft should visit this site and see for themselves.  I'm in the process of having all of these stencils made into decals.  Whereas I may not use every-single-one of them, it's nice to know this  model is going to garner some attention!  I've seen hundreds of R/C sized models in high levels of competition, but rarely have I seen anyone take the time with stenciling.

They were also kind enough to provide me with some tidbits of history pertaining to Big Beautiful Doll.  Apparently, there were three of them.  Two for Landers alone.  Not sure about the third.  However, early photos shows the BBD logo on the nose rather than on the side of the fuselage on later versions.  I'm going with the later version, but it's nice to know about this plane and its history.

For those modelers who are working on warbirds, or thinking of making a super detailed model of a warbird, you may wish to consider that none of the aircraft (that I'm aware of), ever came out of the factory without some sort of stenciling. 


Skye


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Craig 3 on Oct 25th, 2018 at 7:43pm
Skye, your skill and devotion to detail scare me :D I gotta shake my doldrums and get back on the Howard!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Oct 25th, 2018 at 11:27pm
OK Gary...I was looking at the pics of your gun bays and my wife saw the the yellow green of the chromate green gun bays and said, "What's that?"  so I told her and showed her the pics you posted of the real wing panel and she said,
"Wow, that's crazy...will it fly?"  I told her it's just for display... she just looked at me and said, "I'd hate to dust it!" ::) :o ;D :D ;)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Oct 26th, 2018 at 8:22am
Gary - Was just thinking about you this morning and where you were on your P51. Glad to see you are moving along but sorry you need to hide from the homeowners assn. but you will be back to work soon. Thanks for the link to the WWII site, I'll visit them for my F6F colors. Looking forward to more photos when things get back to normal.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 29th, 2018 at 3:06pm
Craig, Sky9, New Builder, and fellow members:

Good afternoon.  No hiding from the HOA, we live in an apartment.  Just hiding my stash from the inspector/owner.  Insofar as dusting the model, I'm hoping my daughter will be cognizant enough to put the finished model inside a display case.  Failing that, at least in a shadow box.  Finally, Craig, glad to hear of your awakening.  We all get into a "holding pattern" for awhile.  Mine was due to several factors outside of my control: pneumonia, surgery, grandchild, "hiding my stash," working 6-day work weeks, family obligations, and well.........

Still managed to squeeze in my hour's worth of research and trying to get some stenciling made into decals.  That was the primary reason why I was inquiring about Callie's graphics as opposed to decals.  The graphics would have to be thin enough to pass for stenciling and, given the thickness of graphics, I opted for decals.   Then I had a choice of either using decals or dry transfers.  The dry transfers have one major drawback, that is rubbing or burnishing the lettering onto the surface.  With the chrome vinyl or Flite Metal as my choice of covering, I didn't want to risk all of those rub marks being passed onto the polished surfaces.  I still have several sheets of dry transfers from my old modeling days and might try a couple of passes on my proof-of-concept fuselage section that I used to experiment the different coverings between the vinyl and FM.  So, we'll see.  Should I elect to try the transfers, I'll definitely post the results.

To me, that's what "True Modeling" is all about.  Not just an assembly of parts and painting the results, but meeting the challenges of our ideal goals and trying to find the best solutions to achieve those goals; whether its for the best flight characteristics or the best work of art for display or even both.  This is where our imaginations and this site kicks in.  We share our ideas, results, trials and tribulations and in doing so, we become "family" in the process.   Oh yeah, the model ends up pretty good too.... ;D

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 12th, 2018 at 4:03pm
Awrighty guys:

I tried the dry transfer route on the Flite Metal and got the results that I knew was going to happen.  The dry transfer letter and number worked well, but the rubbing of the transfers to the Flite Metal left its mark.   Luckily, it was only on my proof-of-concept fuselage.  I've posted the pictures in order, starting with the metal covering prior to the rubbing of transfers.  The next photo shows the transfers themselves and so on until the end.  Just sharing my experiments with you guys.  So, decals it is.....  :o
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 12th, 2018 at 4:07pm
Received the sample decals in the mail the other day and it looks good.  These are the stencils that I was raving so much.  The guy who reproduces them really questioned my sanity too.  So, you guys are not alone.  I'm doing just fine.  Really.  Just fine.  Honest......
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 13th, 2018 at 1:35pm
I immediately cut up a couple of decals of stencils and just dipped them in luke warm water like any other decals.  Unfortunately,  some of them dissolved in my hands and on the surface of Flite Metal.  So, I decided a quick shot of clear paint over the rest of the decals will serve to hold them in place and provide a protective cover as well.  As  you will see, it worked.  The vendor promised that he'll use a sealer on my next order. 

The first picture shows the Flite Metal covering over the proof-of-concept fuselage and you can see my "dents" over the dry transfers from my previous experiment.

The picture #4A shows the setting solutions.  I did not use them on this experiment but I'll definitely will employ them in the future.  They're really necessary in helping the decals to settle down real tight and over rivet details.

Picture # 5A shows the decals dissolving in my hands. 

I also discovered that the carrier film on the decals really show up on the Flite Metal.  I kind of expected this. So after the decals dried,  I shot another coat of clear paint over the decals to help blend in the carrier films into the surface.  This worked for the most part, but some of the carrier film still shows through. 

Picture # 7A shows the shot of clear paint over the rest of the decals.

Pictures # 8A & 9A really shows off the carrier films to good effect.

This means that I will have to cut the decals as close to the prints as possible to minimize any presence of the carrier film as possible. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 13th, 2018 at 1:50pm
This is the final result after a coating of clear paint over the decals.  The small cross (which is a symbol for C.G. used for maintenance purposes) really turned out very good.  The small red square also turned out good.  So, for future reference, I'll have to first add a clear coat of paint over the foil surface to help smooth out any microscopic irregularities that will show up the decal carrier film as "haze"  ( In the plastic modeling world, this is called "silvering), cut the decals as close to the prints as possible and use another coat of clear paint over the dried decals.



As a side note, it's a good practice to shoot a clear coat of paint over almost all surfaces which will have a decal over it.  **Always practice on a scrap piece first.  There are exceptions of course, fabric film coverings is one, if the fabric weave is to be seen through the decals in its entirety.  However, if you're using tissue coverings, and you're detail-oriented enough (read that, slightly crazy as myself), to add thin strips of rib stitching over the wing surfaces,  rivet details on tissue-covered fuselage surfaces and more, then a final shot of clear coat over tissue prior to adding the decals is applicable in this case as well. 


You really have to look very closely at the "gun camera" lettering to see some of the remaining carrier film.  The letters themselves are about 1/16."

MicroMark sells a special solution that will help "hide" the carrier film from the surfaces.  I'll purchase some of this and keep you guys updated.  But for now, as everything stands, not too bad. 

Keep in mind, working with highly polished surfaces, be it paint such as Alclad, silver, chrome or foil covering, any (and all) imperfections will show up. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Nov 13th, 2018 at 3:21pm
Thanks Gary...great info.  I used Microsol and Microset with my decals in plastic modeling years ago.  Great stuff.  You definitely need a glossy surface for decals to be placed to eliminate that "silvering".   [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 14th, 2018 at 9:27pm
Thank you Sky9, much appreciated.  Glad to know we're all in the same "plane."   I learned a lot of very good modeling techniques and ideas from reading scale plastic modeling magazines.  I've never strayed far from my first endeavors into this wonderful field. 

I've attended a couple of plastic modeling shows here in the Reno area and was both impressed and disappointed.  Impressed with the level of detail and the skills to pull off some of the most fantastic models I've ever seen in recent years.  Disappointed that they're so possessive of their craft.  When they found out that I also build wooden models, their attitude literally changed instantly from warm and friendly to icy cold and became extremely aloof. It's almost as if I "defected" and betrayed their exclusive hobby.  Still, I keep reading many of their plastic model magazines to keep up with the latest techniques, skills, styles, kits, new ways of painting to give that model a more realistic look and the list goes on.

I'm now in the process of finishing off the wing frame.

The first picture shows the frame in its rough stage.  I haven't fabricated the flaps.  Since this is strictly a display model, weight considerations were not a factor and therefore to simplify things I decided to simply go with solid balsa.  Notice the solid blocked wingtips.  The plans call for stringers to extend from the wings out to the tips. 

The second picture shows me carving out the excess balsa block to the wingtips.  To accurately gauge how much to shave off before sanding, I simply flipped over the frame to reveal the Guillow's wingtip part and followed the outline from there. One really smart move here, I decided to rough out the wingtips and sand them down as close to the outlines as possible before gluing the two separate wing halves together.  This reduced a lot of stress on the fragile frame and made sanding much easier.  This picture shows the separate wing panels placed on the table as if they were glued together.  I have yet to add the dihedral.

A good close up of the right wingtip and detail.

The last picture shows the fuselage on the wings.  Darn, it's really starting to look like a "Stang!"

Question or feedback guys:  The Guillow's wings are Clark Y airfoil and therefore, they have flat undersides.  Should I add some airfoil underneath and add some thickness to the wing?  Potential problem is the fit to the fuselage which is designed for a flat-bottomed wing.   This translates to a possibility of the wings protruding outside the fuselage outline on the underside. 

I could possibly raise the saddle.......

Or, round out the leading edges to a more symmetrical shape to create the illusion of a laminar flow.... 



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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Nov 15th, 2018 at 10:41am
Gary - You could add material to the bottom of the airfoil to give it a more realistic appearance and leave the center section flat bottom to preserve the wing saddle and the overall appearance. On the other hand you could still modify the wing saddle but may put the wing too high in the fuselage, if I'm reading all this correctly. Great work by the way. I'm assuming you are only doing one gun bay?
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Nov 15th, 2018 at 11:02am
Looks like you've got plenty of leading edge for rounding out the airfoil on the outer panels. I like Mike's solution with leaving the center of the wing "as is" for mating to the fuselage.  A strip of balsa(sq stringer) on the bottom of the wing ribs could assist in giving the laminar section as well.  Sanded to shape.  Again, "take my advice and do as you please!" as my father used to say! ;D :D ;)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 15th, 2018 at 1:46pm
Mike and Tom:

Good morning and thank you for your inputs.  Mike, yep, I'm just doing one opened gun bay, leaving the other "closed" by giving the viewer the chance to see how it looks opened and closed just by looking at either wing.  That, plus it really saves me a whole lot of extra work....  Which is probably the real reason but please don't tell.

Tom and Mike,

I thoroughly agree with you on the airfoil.  I have to  finish off just a couple of items on the wing frames, then, without gluing the two panels together, I'll trial fit them and see how it all plays out and determine what can be done.  Mike's idea sounds good. 

If I'm reading his idea right, is to leave the bottom portion of the wing flat, but add the extra airfoil to the outer wing panels.  Does this mean I'll be increasing the fuselage around the saddle to compensate?  In another words, the flat bottom of the wing is mostly hidden inside the extra underside of the fuselage?

My goal is to emulate the plastic modeler's displays by having the Mustang posed over a mirror to allow the viewer to see the details of the wheel wells.  That's when it dawned on me about the airfoils in the first place.   Hence, all that fuss about redesigning the outlines and detailing of the wells. 


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Nov 20th, 2018 at 9:28am

Quote:
If I'm reading his idea right, is to leave the bottom portion of the wing flat, but add the extra airfoil to the outer wing panels.  Does this mean I'll be increasing the fuselage around the saddle to compensate?  In another words, the flat bottom of the wing is mostly hidden inside the extra underside of the fuselage?

Gary - That was the line of thought I had. Your airfoil on the top of the wing is sized to fit the wing saddle exactly, so no change there. Adding the material to the lower portion of the airfoil to give it more authenticity can then be blended into the fuselage at the flat portion giving you more material to create the fuselage profile and more material to manage the wheel well activity.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 21st, 2018 at 12:28pm
Good morning Mike, Tom & fellow members:

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. 

I'm enclosing a few photo-copies from MicroMark's catalog to illustrate my efforts at addressing potential decal issues.  Since this is to be metal-foil covered and my tests have revealed that this type of film coving will present decal challenges, I've searched through various catalogs and came up with some of these.

The first picture shows the rivet decals that I used with great success on my Guillow's S.E.5 build.  They really do stick out like small rivet heads.  Saved me a lot of time and headache on trying to simulate rivets the old fashion way of using pins or glue drops.

The second photo shows their product - # 84304 - that will make "silvering" disappear.  Because their ad for this product is more narrow and somewhat smaller, it can easily be confused with their "Magic non-toxic" setting solution seen just below.  This is what I was explaining in my previous posts.  However, upon carefully reading the use of this product, it really boils down to common sense of: first applying a clear coat of paint over the finished surface (this includes the color paints as well).  The clear coat covers over all of those tiny microscopic holes & irregularities that are a natural product of almost any finished  surface.  These irregularities are so tiny, that you would literally need a microscope to see them.  But they're there and will fill up with equally tiny air pockets and this in turn, will suspend the decal over the surface.  This tiny suspended space between the decal and the finished surface is what gives the decals a "haze" that is so commonly seen.  This haze is called "silvering." 

I know I explained all this previously, but it's worth noting that they emphasized to use a "special clear coat" of their product first before applying the decals, and right there was a dead give-away to what is really needed to be done.  Then they suggested after applying the decals over the dried surface, to use their special setting solutions and it went on from there.  So, it really gave me a chance to reevaluate all of this and simply use the clear coat of paint method, allow to dry thoroughly, followed by use of any decal setting solution with the application of the decals.

Finally, the last picture shows what I think will help.  They claim that this product will help eliminate all of the edges around the decals to disappear after the decal has been applied and dried.  So, this is the product I'll order and test.

All of this testing.... This is what slows down the build, but prevents frustration and more importantly, give a good model without the mistakes.  I'm hopeful that my postings will be passed on and taken into consideration for anyone reading them for future builds.

Wing saddle and flat surfaces coming up next.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 22nd, 2018 at 5:33pm
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone:

I'm at the point now of trying to determine the best way to fill in the wheel wells and a means of support for the top surface covering.  Normally, this wouldn't be an issue if I wasn't opening up the wheel wells.  The wing itself would be just constructed with the kit-supplied balsa ribs all the way to the root.  However, opening up the wells presented itself a whole new avenue of "how to" on the wing.

First off, I initially started outlining the wheel wells from the Guillow's plans to highlight the cutouts I would make to the underside surface covering when I noticed the discrepancies between the outlines drawn on the plans with the outlines of the scale drawings.   This would also reflect on the outlines and fabrication of the inner wheel well doors hanging down.

That's when the magic "White Out" tape came into play and from there, I also used a compass to help me extrapolate the outlines and enlargements.  The end results were reasonably close.  Some compromise had to be made balancing out the true fidelity of outlines with the construction of the model. 

I only needed to recreate one outline.  I decided on a whim to do the right one.  After all the corrections were made, I took a piece of school notebook paper and traced the outline of my "new" borders.   Then I simply flipped it over to the left side to ensure that they both were evenly matched, errors and all.

If you look carefully at photos 7A & 5A you'll see that I also changed the leading edge of the wing at the root to reflect a more close outline of the wing.  Yep, this means a bit more work on the saddle portion and how to deal with (now) a larger wing root chord. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 22nd, 2018 at 7:00pm
With the "new" wing chord at the root and revised wheel well outlines I'm now faced with a gaping hole to fill and yet at the same time, find a means to support the top covering.  Hmmmm

I'm also trying to figure out how to deal with the flat underside surface we discussed earlier.

The last picture shows to good effect the extra chord length that resulted from my revising the leading edge outline from the previous post, and the potential issues of trying to deal with the saddle to the fuselage.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Nov 23rd, 2018 at 1:06pm
Thought you might find this video interesting...the mating of a full size P-51D's fuselage to the wing: Click Here

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Nov 23rd, 2018 at 1:18pm
I'd have been really tempted to leave the ribs through the wheel well and then with dremel in hand remove the necessary rib material to get the gear clearance needed this would keep the upper surface established without having to reshape the upper surface to match.  Just a thought. 
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 23rd, 2018 at 7:11pm
Good evening everyone, and Sky9, thank you very much for that video of mating the wing to the fuselage on a P-51 Mustang and for your suggestions on how to maintain the top surface of the wiing and still preserve the wheel wells.  Great ideas!

Here are a few pictures of the detailed drawing of the Mustang series from A through D.  Really remarkable and detailed.  On this head-on view, it shows the thickness of the wing and its relationship with the mating to the underside of the fuselage.  I thought a close up shot of this portion of the drawing would help highlight what I'm seeking.

The next series of photos shows the flat underside of the Guillow's Clark Y airfoil we've been discussing a few postings back.  The head-on shots kind of creates the illusion that one only needs to round out the leading edges of the wing to compensate for the flat undersides. 

I'm going to follow Mike's suggestions here.  Thank you, Mike.

Note too, the leading edge of the wing as it touches the fuselage.  It's way out of the saddle and "up front."  To me, this is no big deal as I figured that was going to happen the minute I decided to enlarge the root chord.  I only need to just butt-join the leading edges of the wing to the fuselage rather than having them travel underneath the whole length.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 23rd, 2018 at 7:18pm
The rounding out the leading edges of the wing would initially appear as if that would be the solution and skip the issue of the flat underside of the wing.  That is, until I decided to check it out with notebook paper cut out to the shape of the wing and temporarily taped to the underside. 

Wow, that flat underside really showed up here.  On the second photograph, you're looking head-on to the leading edge of the wing with the tail to the fuselage in the background.  Pictures themselves can be tricky... :P
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 23rd, 2018 at 7:34pm
This is where I'm using Mike's ideas. 

I only need to add some "roundness" to the underside of the wing, not necessarily increasing its thickness.  So, I decided the best way to do this was just give it a tiny, itsy, bitsy, roundness to the underside of the wing by adding strips of balsa to the underside of the flat ribs and to the leading edge to compensate for the added balsa. 

When the strips are glued in and dried, then I'll emphasize the roundness of the leading edges to help create the illusion of a more laminar airfoil.   I'm purposely leaving the trailing edges alone and just going to "feather" in the rear portion of the "roundness" to the beginning of the flaps and ailerons.  I'm trying to keep things from getting too complicated.

These two pictures show what I'm trying to do.  In the first photo, strips of balsa are simply laid over the ribs for photographic purposes.  The second picture shows a small sample strip laid on top of the leading edge to help match up the added thickness.

Since I'm purposely going to have the flaps displayed in extended position, that will serve to help hide the feathering of the rounded surfaces to the edges. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 27th, 2018 at 3:06pm
Just a quick note to say that I sent a quick email to a British plastic model magazine for permission to use a couple of their photos of a Revell P-51D from their Dec. 2017 issue.  If granted, then I can post them to show some of the detailing I'm trying to achieve. 

We'll see.  In the meantime, I'll continue to post as I progress on my build.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 28th, 2018 at 12:46pm
Alrighty:  Just received written permission from a gentleman named Mark of Scale Aviation Modeller to use their photos of the early version of the P-51D Mustang.  This is a British publication of plastic models devoted strictly to aviation in general and aircraft in particular.  To me, this is one of the better publications on detailing of plastic modeling.  This particular issue is from December of 2017 (last year as of this writing).   

Last year, I was initially drawn to the front cover of the P-51 knowing that I would eventually start working on my daughter's Mustang.  So, in addition to collecting photos, stashing kits, and drawings, it also pays to save magazines.  You just never know when they'll become the next reference source.

Finally these pictures reveal parts of the Mustang I was not able to obtain otherwise on the full sized article.  It's not everyday one can flip a Mustang over on its back to illustrate the wheel well detailing as well as the joining of the wing to the fuselage as viewed from the underside.

As you can see from the first picture of the front cover, that Mustang really grabs one's attention. 

The next series of pictures really illustrate the wheel well outlines, the shape of the inner retracting wheel well doors and that small long "bump" running down the middle of the underside of the wing starting at the air scoop.  That "bump" is actually a cover for all the bolts used to fasten the two wing panels together.  This method of using all of those heavy-duty bolts is also duplicated on the Ryan Navion series of private planes.  It makes sense, because the Navion originated from North American when the war was over and NAA wanted to jump into the fast-growing private plane market.  Ultimately, the Navion series was turned over to Ryan Aeronautical, but that's another story.

The last picture really highlights how the wing's thickness is more pronounced on the top surface, with the underside more shallow.  It was also this area that was the focus of my attention in trying to figure out how to thicken the wing as well as making the lower surface of the wing more 'rounded" from the flat Guillow's wing, add wheel well details, and at the same time, deal with the revised leading edge of the wing meeting with the lower portion of the fuselage.

All photos on this post are courtesy Mr. Mark Willey of Scale Aviation Modeller, thank you very much, sir.  It's greatly appreciated.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 11th, 2018 at 1:16pm
Getting back to the underside of the wing and using Mike's ideas.  As you can see, I'm starting to round out the extra balsa strips that were added to the bottom of the ribs.  It's not much of an airfoil in the laminar sense, but it'll hopefully be enough to make a visual difference from pure flat Clark Y.  You can compare this photo with the pictures # 31 & # 32 from the previous page.

Now to deal with the top surface of the wing over the wheel well areas. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 11th, 2018 at 3:03pm
While working on the underside of the wing, I was still trying to debate with myself on the merits of simply gluing the ribs in normal fashion following the instructions laid out on the plans.  From there, it was suggested after the wing was completed, to simply take a Dremel tool and whittle away the material from the ribs where the wheel wells were to be located. 

I had a little difficulty with this concept.  Two reasons: First, I had altered the wing chord at the root to reflect a more accurate outline of the real Mustang and this altered chord was larger than the one called for on the plans.  This meant the original ribs provided by Guillow's to be used in a normal fashion would no longer fit the new wing outline and were useless.

Secondly, I was concerned from the stand point that just using the Dremel tool however lightly on thin 1/16" balsa ribs risked the chance of shattering the wood.  I'm keeping in mind that this is an older kit where the parts were still die-cut as opposed to laser.  This meant the wood has aged somewhat over a period of time.  Combined with Guillow's use of hardened balsa, it only made sense that hardened wood would be more susceptible to shattering if I were to so much look at it cross-eyed.

Finally, what material left of the ribs would be extremely fragile with nothing else to give them added support to make up for the loss of material and I didn't think there would be any strength to hold up the top surface of the wing and retain its airfoil shape; let alone the added stress of holding the wing to the fuselage with an empty wheel well.

An alternative had to be considered.  As that portion of the model lay dormant, I went back and forth in my mind all kinds of alternate methods to consider.  There were pros and cons to all and each one was eliminated for one reason or another.

Borrowing an idea of using laminated strips of wood that I used from my S.E.5 build on the fuselage, I decided this would be a good concept for the wing and the added strength that comes with lamination itself.

But how could I match up the correct airfoil shape of the laminated strips of wood to the fuselage saddle?  Bright light bulbs really come in handy every once in awhile and it really lit up brightly this time.  In this case, it pays to save the ribs and extra woods until the model is completely built.  One never knows when that extra piece would come in handy.  In this case, it was wing rib # 2 which, according to the plans is supposed to fit exactly to the saddle of the fuselage.

The first two pictures shows my empty wheel within the framework of the wing and the relationship to the fuselage.

The next photo shows the cutout of the fuselage and the part number clearly printed indicating its purpose and location.

It would be this rib that I would use for the initial template with each succeeding smaller rib to help blend in the taper of the wing from the root to the tip.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 11th, 2018 at 3:17pm
So it began with rib # 2 and each succeeding smaller rib to # 4 that I would use as templates for the laminations. 

The last picture shows only three of the laminations.  I decided on reinforcing them by nearly doubling up on the laminated rib outlines for added strength.  Hence, the reason why I mentioned # 4 rib.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:05am
With all of the laminated ribs in place, the wing is finally taking shape as a true Mustang's laminar flow.

You can easily see from the underside view that now I have a really good wheel well and lots of room to detail it. 

Looking from the side elevation as seen from the trailing edge as the wing is laying down you can also see how the root is rather high in curvature and then graduated downward to the wing and then towards the tip.   This is something I can adjust and lower the laminations a bit to suit.  Still, everything seems to "click" and fits right in the fuselage saddle.

I'm thinking of attaching a "ceiling" under the laminated woods and building up side walls as the full sized Mustang has what can best be described as enclosures.  In short, building up an interior wheel well with plumbing, wiring and faux supports resembling the full sized interior of the Mustang.

Only remaining issue is how to have the underside surface of outside skin of the wing itself retain its curved shape, and also have a wheel well outline, since there's no way I can have laminations or other supports to hold the skin.   I'm open to suggestions or comments. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:26am

Skyediamonds wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:05am:
Only remaining issue is how to have the underside surface of outside skin of the wing itself retain its curved shape, and also have a wheel well outline, since there's no way I can have laminations or other supports to hold the skin.   I'm open to suggestions or comments. 

Not sure just what you're asking?  Are you speaking of the panel with the wheel well, or the opposite panel without the open wheel well.  If you have the laminations of the ribs fore and aft of the wheel well, then the curvature should be maintained.  As for the wheel well cover on the gear leg, you might consider molding the skin by boiling the balsa and taping it to a properly shaped mold to dry.
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 13th, 2018 at 10:14pm
That's a good idea.  The wheel well in itself is a enclosure within the wing.  I've noticed and photographed the wheel well and it has a flat "ceiling" with walls.  The main wing spar makes up the back wall, the rest are sheets of aluminum and supports.  It's kind of difficult to describe.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 17th, 2018 at 11:11pm
Good evening guys:

While I'm working on the wheel well enclosures I've also been experimenting with ways to cover the wings.  Being the easy going sort of guy (read that, lazy) I'd like to avoid going through all the hassles of laying down sheets of balsa wood over the wings and goiing through the sanding/filling/priming and sanding route.  I've decided to opt for the easy way of covering the wings by either going with thin sheets of plastic or paper.  So, I decided to try experimenting with both.  I purchased an awl and used a pounce wheel to reproduce simulated rivets along with the use of a small diameter brass tube to replicate the small hatches used to fasten the wing panels. 

The first two pictures show the plastic and glossy paper I intend to use on the wings.  Of course, at this point I'll be experimenting as a Proof-of-concept" and not actually work on the wings themselves.

The next series of pictures show how I'm going to scribe the lines, rivets and hatch marks using various tools of trade. 

The last photo shows my rattle can of Rustoleum Metallic paint.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 17th, 2018 at 11:19pm
After scribing them with rivets, lines, and hatches.  I then sprayed both the paper and plastics. 

From the looks of things, I'd say the glossy paper won.

The first  picture shows a close up of the paper after it was scribed and painted

The second shows the plastic after it too was scribed and painted.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 17th, 2018 at 11:24pm
This is an extreme close up of the line scribed by the awl and I found I have to be careful not to push too hard and deep.  Doing so, not only creates the desired panel lines, but actually creates ridges on the sides making the line appear more like a furrow on a farmer's field.

So, it is a matter of practicing the paneling with the awl a few times to get the feel of how much pressure to add to the awl, which I've found it to be slightly more than simply holding a pen, as seen from the horizontal line.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 17th, 2018 at 11:30pm
Going against common sense and all of the readings about not adding a protective coating of clear over silver paint, ended in disaster. 

There may be a few modelers out there who think I might've added too much spray at once.  This is actually just a couple of light passes.

The is the clear coat.  As you can see, it's the same Rust-oleum brand.  So, using the same brand won't help either.

I'm open to ideas, suggestions and comments as to how I may protect the silver paint from finger prints, handling, and possibly being able to do some pin washing.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Dec 18th, 2018 at 12:37am
Skye...did you use anything to degrease the silver surface?  From the looks of the picture, the clear seemed to bead up like water on a waxed surface. 

Although looking at the picture of the silver paint can...I'm not sure you'd need a clear coat to cover the silver paint.  With it being an enamel it would seem to be easily cleaned after having dried completely before being handled.
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 18th, 2018 at 11:21am
Tom,

Thank you.  I was thinking it might've needed the clear coat for two reasons: 1) my grandson and 2) for the application of pin wash.  I'm told and read that a gloss coat of clear is almost mandatory for the pin wash to truly do its job of traveling through all of those panel lines via capillary action without the rough surfaces stopping or hindering its flow.  What do you think? 

I sprayed another sample sheet of paper with the metallic paint last night and this time, I'm allowing it to cure at least 24 hours instead of the "normal" 2 hours drying time allowed before handling it.  The instructions also say to wait at least  8 hours to allow it to cure completely before applying a second coat.  So you're probably right about the waiting times.  Presumably the second coat will be in the form of clear coat.  Just anxious to move forward with the model I guess and the impatience got the better of me.


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Dec 18th, 2018 at 1:08pm
I struggle also with waiting for paint to dry thoroughly.  We start seeing things come together and we just can't wait to move on to the next step.  What's that saying, "Patience is a virtue!"   Just don't pray for patience,  or you'll have more than enough opportunities to exercise your patience!!! Don't ask how I know about this!!!! :o :D ;D ;)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:06pm
LoL...

Thanks Tom for the wonderful response.  I enjoyed that one.  Well spoken from someone with lots of personal experience.

Speaking of patience, I also tried (without waiting of course) the use of that famous Johnson's Floor Polish with equal disastrous results.  I was not thinking of waiting for the silver paint to completely cure.  I was still of the mindset that the clear coat had somehow, chemically reacted with the underlying base silver coat. 

So, I figured that something "neutral" like floor polish should do the trick.  The outcome was exactly as what happened with the clear coat.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 21st, 2018 at 1:16pm
Alrighty gentlemen:

It seems I have a Eureka moment and found something that just might work. Further experiments will definitely have to be conducted.  Oddly enough, on a whim I tried using Testor's spray can of metallic silver.  I allowed it to dry thoroughly (three days, mostly due to holiday shopping and work).  Then sprayed it with Rustoleum clear.

For some odd reason, it worked!  Don't fully understand the chemistry behind all of this, but for now, I'm happy.

Enclosed, are some photos of the results.

I also included a photo of Rustoleum Metallic that was allowed to equally dry for three days followed by a coat of clear Rustoleum clear and the results were equally disastrous.

So, the next step is to try out some artist's oils.  In this case, I'm using a water-based color found at the local Wal Mart store.  I'll be using a diluted mixture with a touch of soap and water.

My reasoning behind using a water-based colored paint is that the oils take an enormously long time to cure (sorry Sky9, no patience here).  The other reason being I'm not sure if the oils will be compatible with the Testor's/Rustoleum combination.  I figured that using a water-based solution wouldn't hurt.

Cheers.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Dec 21st, 2018 at 7:03pm
Always wise to use your test strips first though.  As for what you use, it all boils down to what works best for you.  Sooo...as my father used to say, "Take my advice, and do as you please!"   ;D ;)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 24th, 2018 at 11:30am
Wise man, your father is. 

I'm still trying to refine all this and will try some more Tamiya paints as well as getting some real artist's oils instead of the Wal Mart brands.  I'm getting very close to achieving my goals of pin washing the wing details, just getting all of the bugs worked out. 

Merry Christmas to one and all.

Skye

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 30th, 2018 at 4:00pm
Good day to one and all:

If I don't get a chance, I wish everyone a Happy New Year and best of health and happiness in the (many more) years to come.

I'm still going to try pin washing on the results of both the silver base paint, in this case, Testor's and the clear coat of Rustoleum and see what the outcome is.  I'm using a simple water-based color easily obtained in the arts and crafts department at Wal Mart.  I'm also using a drop of liquid detergent as a "lubricant" medium to help in the capillary flow of the water-based colors. 

As you can see, the results were poor or mixed at best.

The first two photos shows the bottle used as my color of choice.  Reading on the back, it seemed like a good idea and easy to mix with water as well as being environmentally safe and all that wonderful stuff.

The next two pictures shows the application of the mixture heavily diluted with water to a consistency of milk with a fine brush.  I allowed the mixture to dry for about a minute to allow the paint to settle in the grooves and rivet details.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 30th, 2018 at 4:10pm
As you can see, the results were poor at best.  Keep in mind, this is over a Rustoleum clear coat on top of a Testor's silver base.

Out of curiosity (or desperation?) I tried using a nail that had its pointed end blunted using a file to see if by widening the groove would help both in scale and in facilitating the absorption of the paint mixture.

One of the unintended consequences was it created a wide margin on either side of the groove that not even two coats of silver spray paint seemed to make any difference.  Any comments?

I also tried this technique on plastic with the same poor results.  This was plastic that was cut away from protecting a product I bought at a store.  The plastic itself was thick enough to be considered very difficult to bend or be flexible.  The silver base paint just seemed to hide everything.  So I didn't proceed any further.

The quest goes on!!
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Dec 30th, 2018 at 5:56pm
Skye...what are you using for your "pin wash" paint?  Is it oil or acrylic based paint?  That may make a difference too!
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 31st, 2018 at 7:58pm
Thank you for asking.  I just recently purchased all Testor's products from Hobby Lobby.  They only sell Testor's paints and thinners, so I thought I would run with them.  Testor's labels say all of their paints are enamels. 

I would liked to have also purchased Tamiya paints and MIG washes, but Hobby Lobby doesn't stock them, and ordering via mail order through one of the many catalogs just wasn't an option. I've already exceeded my budget allocated for this portion of my modeling.  Besides I just didn't have the patience ......  ::)

I'm already in the process of testing them.  In addition to referencing to some of my magazines, I also YouTubed and Googled "Pin Wash."  The steps they described to take are pretty much reflective of what I've been doing, so it's probably coming down to the products themselves and how they're applied. 

There was a question and answer section in Google, and one of the questions actually addressed some of the same issues I was having.  The answer, aside from the proper mix, was to make sure that the thinner/paint mix remains in suspension and depending upon the container being used, to either stir or shake frequently.  So, I'm going to try making sure that I maintain a good suspension of the fluids.

Another key factor is viscosity.  I have tried various thinned solutions and they appear "okay" but will vary them slightly with each test until something happens.

It also validated what I mentioned previously, that pigments in model paints are far more refined than the standard hardware store variety.  So we're looking at more expensive products for that refinement as well as using more of them, since they're mostly in smaller quantities.

The Testor's products are: the silver paint (just bought a fresh can), followed by Testor's Clear Coat, then a fresh can of Testor's gloss black, and finally, a small bottle of Testor's thinner.  The black and thinner are to be mixed for the washes.

My take right now is to apply the wash and then immediately swab the excess with a cotton bud.  I've used the cotton buds both dry and with a bit of thinner.  The thinner seems to remove the clear coat and a bit of the base coat.  So I'll have to watch carefully and see which way to go there.

I joked to one of our fellow members (biplane guy) that I'll be "testing" Testor's.

My "research" and experimenting with thinners and paint removers has lead me to: Turpentine, Mineral Spirits, paint thinner and water in descending order with turpentine being the most volatile.  With the exception of water, they all can be used to perform the same basic tasks of removing paints regardless of whether they're water or oil based (if a water-based paint has completely cured, then water won't remove it).  However, turpentine is mostly used as a remover and it's especially good for varnished surfaces that have been aged.  Turpentine has a very strong smell, using it definitely means applying it in a well ventilated area and keeping the fumes away from any heat source.  Mineral spirits falls somewhere in between.  Paint thinners can be used as a remover, but as the term implies, it is mostly used as a thinning agent for paints.  Acrylics can have water mixed as a thinner and that's a whole new ball game.  Whew.

I still have the Pledge floor polish and will try that as well.  It was used with the Rustoleum/Testor's mix and got well, mixed results.  Nothing really came out of all this. 

So, that's where I'm heading now.  Amazing that I have devoted so much time and energy into something that looked so easy.

At worst, I can always resort to using a black ball point pen or fine point marking pen. 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 9th, 2019 at 9:59pm
I'll be posting a few pictures of the final results, but suffice to say everything didn't pan out.  Not even close. 

Unless someone has an alternate idea or suggestion, I'm moving on and using a fine point marker for making paneling lines on the wings.

If nothing else, I've invested in a lot of paints and materials and tried many different ideas.  All to no avail.


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jan 10th, 2019 at 8:46am

Quote:
One of the unintended consequences was it created a wide margin on either side of the groove that not even two coats of silver spray paint seemed to make any difference.  Any comments?

Hi Gary - You are right on about the unintended consequences. Any methodology of creating the panel line mechanically will leave the displaced material on both sides of the groove and these will need to be eliminated by some mechanical means or the rough surface will definitely interfere with any future applications of any coatings material. Same goes for the inside surface of the groove, any roughness here will interfere with the capillary action you are looking for to create the panel line. I know this sounds like a trifle element but looking at plastic models, especially the higher end ones, all the panel lines are molded into place and no displaced material to contend with and the interior surface is as smooth as the exterior. In the model club I belong to, all of the members except me build plastic models and they gave a demo on intensifying panel lines and the one outstanding point was the smoothness of the groove. They were using a tool with a cutting edge to remove material rather than displace it. All this points to another problem in that they have an existing path to work in as yours is creating the path so variations in pressure creates variations in width. Practice will fix that problem. You mentioned you have cans of material and am assuming these to be spray cans. I would suggest working with bottled coatings in the hobby world as you have discovered, the materials are more finely ground than commercial coatings and working back and forth seems to be creating more questions than answers.  Consistency is one of the important keys to a successful outcome. I have good luck with both Tamiya and Model Master (Testor) acrylics. Thinning medium is water and distilled water will eliminate any materials in your water supply that may be there (iron, etc.). Also to the problem of capillary action, the addition of dish soap is to reduce the surface tension between the liquid and the substrate. Dish soap, while it will work also contains elements somewhat incompatible with acrylics. To solve that, I use a flow aid (produced by Liquitex but there are others, check Amazon) in my airbrush art and it is an acrylic based material (consistency of materials again) and very concentrated, instructions recommend one drop of flow aid to 20 drops of paint. This helps with distribution and extends the drying time a bit to encourage flow out. I'll be in my local hobby shop in the next couple of days and will ask about your situation and see what they have to offer. I know this does not solve your problem directly but, hopefully, gives a bit of direction for more success. I'll be back soon and may have some more information.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 12th, 2019 at 11:11pm
Mike,

Great reply!  Sorry for the slight delay in responding.  Obligations have a way of distracting me now and then.  Can't wait to hear what the other fellows have to say regards to addressing the capillary flow issues.

Regarding the plastic models and your fellow members, I totally agree with your observations and your comments for smoothness of the grooves themselves.  The plastic models already have smooth grooved out lines embedded into the surfaces.  What separates me from the "standard" fare of simply going from gluing the plastic together and then pin washing is the creation of the panel lines themselves. 

To address this issue: I've seen several articles on the steps the plastic modelers take.  Oftentimes, they would glue two plastic halves together.  This creates a seam line.  To remove this seam line, they use sand paper or stick to sand down the seam.  Sometimes it also requires some sort of filler to help smooth out the gaps. 

For those plastic models in which the desired finish is to be silver or simulated metal, this may require an extra step of using some sort of buffing compounds to help achieve a mirror-like finish.  As we all know: Almost any metallic finish will highlight any imperfections on the surface no matter how insignificant it may appear to the eye prior to painting/coating.

From there, the plastic modeller will then take a scribing tool and, as you described, will cut or remove the sanded surface to replenish the panel lines.  From here, this is where I believe my issues seem to manifest themselves.

I've decided to use a very flexible medium for the wing surface.  It can be either (relatively) thin glossy paper or plastic.  My main reason is exactly because of my desire to replicate the silver painted surface of the full sized Mustang, that any imperfections will definitely show up. 

Here's my plan/goal.  I intend to cover the whole surface of the wing with one sheet.  I would first, pre-scribe or mark out the paneling prior to gluing the surfaces to the wings.  This way, I wouldn't have to worry about breaking the wing during the scribing process.  Thinking how any imperfections will show up, I also wish to extend this covering over the leading edges and wrap around to the underside just enough to cover the whole leading edges.  My reason?  If I were to simply have the covering butt against the leading edge and fill in the rest with any kind of filler or finished balsa, the meeting point of the two surfaces, however tight I make the tolerances,  will show up as irregularities.  Even to carefully blend in the leading edges with filler to the surfaces will show up as an "inconsistency" (love that word you used).  To preclude this chance, I figured to simply wrap around the leading edges would address this potential problem.  The trailing edges will "take care of themselves."  Because the wings do not have any compound curves, this wrapping of the leading edges should (theoretically) be a non-event.  I can compensate for the taper of the wings by cutting out the sheet to fit.

The plastic modelers use a relatively hard plastic that is far from flexible.  This plastic, I believe, will also manifests itself very nicely when removing any materials from the scribing tool.  I've yet to see any articles describing a plastic modeller using an ultra thin sanding paper to smooth out the grooves.  So, what gives the smoothness to the grooves is the use of clear coats of paint, or floor polish or some sort of medium to help fill in these microscopic dents, holes, irregular surfaces.  This method is also used prior to the application of decals to help mitigate any chances of "silvering."

The differences is the materials I might be using.  That is, paper.

I've also tried to use a ball-point pen pressed down on the glossy paper to leave an imprint on the surface and (hopefully) not remove the glossy texture of the paper surface.  I'm waiting for the results to dry out for me to use a floor polish followed by another attempt at pin washing.

I'll be enclosing some pictures soon.

Any feedback from you or your fellow modellers, hobby store owner, or our fellow members here on this site will be welcomed.

Skye


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by toulouse on Jan 13th, 2019 at 3:05pm
Enjoying your build.

Great approach using a ball pen.

Reminds me - I about 40 years ago I scaled up a three view plan for an own design 30 inch span Sopwith Pup flying scale model.

I detailed it, as part way through building, decided to enter it in a scale model contest. 

Details added included; rotary engine with cylinders, cooling fins and push rods, a plastic detergent bottle modified for the cowing, cockpit instrument panel, joystick, seat with seat belt and buckle with belt holes, machine gun, wheels and wooden tail skid with metal protective end.  Covered model in silk to simulate canvas.

Working from photographs of a Pup for the wheels detail, I used O rings as tyres, with wood centres and hubs and heavy, white, paper for the canvas covers that were laced to go over the spokes.  To simulate the spokes I used a thick ball pen to mark out the scale spokes from the inside surface so they showed up as raised on the outside.  From the photographs a small black hole was apparent on the wheel covers,   to access the valve to pump up the tyres.  Simulated this with a small black paper circle punched out using a two hole punch.  Axles with rubber bungees etc

The wheels looked pretty good.

Simple approaches work well, on a simulation, "trompe l'oeil" or deceive the eye basis.



Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 17th, 2019 at 12:42pm
Toulouse:

Great ideas!  Never thought of using a pen to scribe the outlines of a spoked wheel to the insides of a paper cutout.  That's great...   :D Sounds like your biplane Pup is an award winning model.  Would you mind posting a couple on this build?  Would love it see it, even if the Pup is a bit out of place on the Mustang build thread.  I've build an S.E.5 and Wright Bros' Flyer, both builds can be seen on this site.  So I've got a special place for biplanes.  They possess enormous amounts of character.   

I'm going (finally) post a few photos to help illustrate my goals and my attempts and then, time permitting, will reveal a head-slapping revelation at the end. 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 17th, 2019 at 1:25pm
Good morning everyone.  We're getting lots of "white stuff" here in Reno, Nevada.  Should anyone wish, please feel free to help yourselves to take this away from the streets. 

To start: I'm going to do a bit of "back and forth" on this series of posting for the lack of a better way to put it.  I'm going to begin with a series of pictures illustrating my attempts (again) at pin washing.

In the first picture, I'm using glossy photographic paper.....  The image is an oldie from my S.E.5 build thread and depicts my instruments to be used in the cockpit interior.  Anyway, I figured that photographic paper should really have that finish that (should) takes this smooth groove to the ultimate level. 

I then decided to make a groove and some other lines along with a series of simulated rivets using a regular ball point pen and pounce wheel.

Followed by a light coating of silver and then when it dried, a top coat of clear.  Yes, I'm using spray paint, contrary to using a brush, but this was all done prior to Mike's suggestion of using bottles and brushes.  Sorry about that. 

I then used a heavily diluted solution of wash consisting of black Testor's enamel and Testor's thinner. I let it dry for about 15 minutes according to several articles that other plastic modelers say, before wiping off the excess.  The results were predictable. Which is to say, disastrous.  Hmmmm


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 17th, 2019 at 1:36pm
In  this post, I'm going to show a series of photos that I took of the glossy paper I thought would be a good idea to use on the wing.  It's relatively thick to help cover up the open framework, yet flexible.  This is the type of paper that also compares to the thickness of photographic paper.  It's just the gloss finishes (I think) that makes the difference.

The first image shows my intentions to cover the wing.  I admit that this piece is a bit small for the size, as i was only intending to see if the whole idea was even feasible.  I wanted to make the piece large enough to wrap around the front leading edge of the wing and still have enough left over to overlap the trailing edge for the flaps and ailerons. 

The next picture shows a close up of my attempts to wrap the paper around the leading edge of the wing.  It's difficult to see in this image, unless you can enlarge it or look carefully, but the paper is a bit too thick as it starts to exhibit folds along the wrapping process.

The next photo shows the overlap intended to be used for the ailerons and flaps.  This part is good and serves my idea.  At least half of it anyway......  ::)
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 17th, 2019 at 1:44pm
Since the paper is too thick to wrap around the leading edge without exhibiting folds, it brings me back to using a more thinner and flexible material, be it plastic or glossy paper.....

Now the forehead slapping dilemma.  In order that I may cut a groove to be seen during the pin wash, it must be deep enough to overcome the coats of paints.

Thus, I must cut a groove that is deep.  Unfortunately, as seen in the second picture, using a thinner form of plastic that is more flexible to wrap around the leading edge of the wing, the deep grooves also distorts the surrounding areas.

At this point, it's must my opinion that plastic modellers have an advantage of using thicker plastics to withstand the grooves.  Yet this thicker plastic cannot be bent to shape around the sharp curves such as leading edges. 

It would also appear that using bottles would not be any different.  I could be wrong, though. 

I'm  about to try using the aluminum foil or chrome vinyl route.  They're flexible, wrap around curves, leaves a highly metallic finish, and only need to use a fine point marker.   This will reduce the accuracy of the intended finish by having the wings in a highly polished state and without the added dimensions of grooving, but at least I can have the benefit of both worlds. 

As an addendum:  I also used a fine point marker over grooved lines and the differences are almost negligible.  Even when I gently fold over the paper, I personally can barely see the difference.  The rivets of course, would have to suffer.

Suggestions?  Comments?




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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 17th, 2019 at 2:58pm
I did try an (another) experiment on the foil itself.

The first picture shows me using a regular ball point pen as a sample line for panels.  I can vary the lines just by using either a ball point pen or fine point marker.

I spray painted silver on the foil and it takes it very well.  I also masked off a portion to see if there would be any paint seepage and pulled off the tape with a very clean line.

Only potential drawback is of course, no grooving for pin washing; which, I suppose might be just as well.

So, there's another avenue to possibly pursue.  Still open to comments or suggestions.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jan 18th, 2019 at 11:14am

Quote:
it starts to exhibit folds along the wrapping process

Hi Gary - You may be able to defeat this problem by breaking down the fibers of the paper a little. Put it on a hard surface and with underside (wing rib side) up, use a dowel or some other round hard tool and roll over the small area where it will wrap around the leading edge. This may take a bit of experimenting since the breaking down of the fibers will thin out the sheet a little in that area. As another option, dampening the area of the paper at the leading edge both inside and outside may relax the fibers enough to get it around and then let it dry in place. Just thinking out loud here. I'm still rolling this around in my mind because I know there is a simple solution out there. To your panel line problem, was thinking why try to enhance the panel lines (pin wash - also there will be a myriad of panel lines and they may be more distracting than helpful) since the lines on full size aircraft do not have the panel lines enhanced (unless they are dirty) and you only see them as a shadow in the depressed areas and mostly in different lighting situations. So, put in your panel lines (some deep and some not so deep) and add your rivets and look at it in various lighting conditions. Maybe we are looking for a difficult solution and a simple one may do what you want.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 18th, 2019 at 2:13pm
Mike,

Excellent ideas.  I'll immediately try the dampening down method you described using a dowel over the paper.  If all else fails, I'll use the paper as a sheet to cover the wing overall, with the edge butting up against the balsa leading edge.  From there, I'll fill in with Spackling Compound (obtainable from local hardware stores as filler.)  The way I've structured it out, the butting would only require a minimal amount of filler.

After the filler is dried and sanded smooth, I'll run the foil over the whole thing, including wrapping around the leading edges of the wings.  The foil should easily cover any imperfections, however small or tiny, underneath; since the foil's topside surface is already polished.

Excellent suggestions!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jan 19th, 2019 at 7:36am
Hi Gary- I think you have the answer and reaching back in the "long term repository" I seem to remember Alfakilo used a light weight spackling compound he found in a local DIY store and reduced it a little with water to get it to fill better. His results looked very good and may be a good solution here as well. I'll look around a bit and Alfakilo, if you read these postings, maybe direct us to that post?
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 19th, 2019 at 4:23pm
"To your panel line problem, was thinking why try to enhance the panel lines (pin wash - also there will be a myriad of panel lines and they may be more distracting than helpful) since the lines on full size aircraft do not have the panel lines enhanced (unless they are dirty) and you only see them as a shadow in the depressed areas and mostly in different lighting situations. So, put in your panel lines (some deep and some not so deep) and add your rivets and look at it in various lighting conditions. Maybe we are looking for a difficult solution and a simple one may do what you want.
Mike"

I'm with Mike on this one!  I've also thought that Masking and airbrush might be just the thing to make panel lines varying the width and darkness of the paint for the panel lines.  I remember doing some all metal aircraft back doing plastic models where different shades of silver were used to give a different look to various panels.  I also used a rub on silver paste that could be polished to a chrome look.  Can't remember the name at present.  Using the foil covering it could be masked off then adding silver paints to get the various panels a different look as well.  Just a thought!
Sky9pilot

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by MKelly on Jan 19th, 2019 at 5:54pm
Tom, was the paste Rub-n-Buff?  If so, it's still available at Hobby Lobby.  I used it on the prop for my Little Gem racer, worked well if a bit messy during application.

I'm right there with you on the panel lines.  It seems to be fashionable to over-highlight panel lines on plastic models these days - to me shading the panels as you've described makes a more realistic finish.  Washing panel lines under the engine and center fuselage where the fluids attract dirt does add to the look of a model.

Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 19th, 2019 at 5:59pm
Mike...I think that was what it was called!  Very versatile stuff!  I used it for panels, highlights on engine fins, props etc.
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jan 20th, 2019 at 10:05am
Gary - I'm back from my trip to the long term repository and found the reference to the light weight spackle.
Here at reply #22: http://www.stickandtissue.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1532092332/15

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 1:17am
Well gentlemen: got a mixed bag of results and have came to what I think will be a viable solution to my dilemma for the wing covering.  First off, I admit that my approach to the covering is a bit unorthodox in the context of trying to avoid infiling or sheeting the wings in the first place.  For the life of me, I could take this approach, but it means lots of sanding, filling, priming and sanding between several coats and on and on.  I just felt that there must be an easier and more expeditious way of achieving the same results with less hassles.

That being said, I followed Mike's suggestions on using a dowel and work in the glossy paper into at first, a gentle curve followed by increasingly smaller radii to fix the leading edge of the wing.  I've enclosed the results.

As luck would have it, no matter how many times I approached this project with all due diligence of care, the end results were the same.  The thick glossy paper needed to support the wing covering over an open framework just wouldn't curve tightly enough to fit the sharp leading edges without "folding up" 

I used a small handle of my X-Acto blade handle that was the closest I could immediately find that would approach the relatively thickness of the Guillow's leading edge of the wing and it still folded up along the curves.

The second photo really doesn't show the folds unless you carefully zoom up, but it's there.

So, from the results of all of my trials and experiments, it appears that I'll be using glossy paper to cover the whole skeletal wing frame and butt its edges along the leading edges.  From there, I'll use a minimal amount of Speckling Compound to fill in whatever tiny gaps to smooth out the lines between the balsa leading edge and the glossy paper covering. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 1:22am
The positive side of the mixed bag is how surprised I was at the flexibility of spray paint after it dried.  I half-way expected to see cracks when I rolled the glossy paper sheet.  Instead, the silver spray paint held itself very nicely, even along very tight curves.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 1:34am
As you can see here, the glossy paper will act as a sort of stressed skin for the skeletal frame.  The theory is to avoid all that hassles of sheeting the wings and with all that balsa sheeting comes sanding, filling, priming, etc.

The edges of the paper butts up against the balsa leading edges very nicely and it initially appears that I wouldn't have to do that much filling in to help blend in the two media.

After the glossy paper is permanently affixed to the skeletal wing, it's then that I would cover the whole with a foil finish; including wrapping around the leading edges of the wings.  Thus, hoping to achieve a true, smooth, natural metal finish. 

As mentioned in my previous posting, the foil takes to silver spray paint very well and masks off without any problems whatsoever.

Of course, before adding the foil, it would be pre-riveted with a pounce wheel.  I would probably have to experiment a bit as to just how deep I would have to apply the pounce wheel in order to see if it would compensate for the silver paint that would cover the rivet patterns as as on the full sized aircraft. 

After the riveting and silver paint of the foil,  then both the foil and glossy paper covering would be pre-cut for the open machine bay and pre-outlined with both fine-tipped marker pens and regular ball point pens to help avoid pushing down on the surface enough to have the skeletal frame show through.  No doubt, a lot of using notebook paper as practice for the final template before transferring to the glossy paper and ultimately, the foil here.

One extra detail I overlooked mentioning.  I would like to see an "inner lip" to both the open machine bay and to the wheel wells that would fit the lip of the doors or hatches that cover the openings just like the full sized Mustang.  This would mean I would have to cut slightly larger sized openings to fit over the original openings and thereby producing a "lip."  Seems like I'm setting myself up for a lot of work in attention to detail.

This will also give me a chance to preview the finish before peeling off the sticky backing and allow me to evaluate as to whether or not this is the final solution.

Only potential issue remaining is the sharp edges produced by the foil and whether or not I can (or should) produce a very small fold line along the intended edges all around.

Of course, the other remaining potential issue is once the sticky backing is removed, depending upon whether I choose Flite Metal or chrome vinyl, there really isn't much "forgiveness" in allowing me to slightly shift or slide or move into final position without the sticky adhesive grabbing onto the surface.  Flite Metal has a very strong adhesive and I've found trying to remove it just enough to relocate the foil piece is almost impossible.

It has been suggested that I try using a small solution of liquid soap and water after the sticky backing was removed and allow this fluid solution to act as a "lubricant" to give me a chance to move the foil into final place.

So, that's the plan that I see being played out for me.

Whew.  I must've revised my writing at least five or six times to see if I conveyed my ideas across accurately.

Still open to comments and any suggestions.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 9:31am
Hi Gary - I was sorry to see that my method of rolling the paper didn't work out but at least that is why we experiment to avoid all those little issues that don't always come thru. Sounds like you may be on the right track with using the thick paper and butting it up against the leading edge then bringing the leading edge down to the paper thickness will definitely reduce the filling and sanding required. Following that work and adding the metal foil over the leading edge will definitely improve the looks of that joint. Here's a possible point to add the panel lines you may need. Not knowing how thick the metal foil is, I'm going to advocate for using separate pieces of foil and butting them together in the area of the panel lines and then adding a small depression at the joint to enhance the panel line. This could produce the effect you were looking for earlier with the pin washing methodology, just shadow lines depending on the available lighting. This may also relieve some of the mental and physical tension of adding the metal foil in larger sheets and the necessity of adding any lubricant to the paper base to move the foil around (more experimenting coming no doubt).

To the lip around the gear bays, I might suggest adding a thin layer of balsa inside those areas to create the lip after the foil is added rather than attempting to do precise placement of the tricky foil. At that point you could add in some zinc chromate color to blend in the the new addition. This will also allow you to trim back the foil for a more precise opening at the gear bay. Was also wondering about the fold line at the edges. Not sure what the exact description is here and so am assuming the intention is to fold the foil under itself. If so this may create an bulge you may not like after all is said and done and the folded under area will not have any adhesive. Haven't looked at the Mustang photos lately so don't know if there is a trim piece in those areas. If not North American just left the metal in its native state there, fastened with rivets probably.

Your progress is moving at the same pace as mine, except mine is isolated to my drawing board developing all the little details. I think your end result will be another knock out airplane just like your SE5 and the Wright Flyer. Glad I can walk along side you in this effort.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 1:51pm
Several modelers use thin Cyano glue to seal thin balsa to give a more stressed skin appearance to the balsa.  I'd suggest trying to use the same technique to the paper to give it the same stiffness.  You'll have to be careful to not over saturate the paper or it will probably warp on you.  Just a thought on how to arrive at a stiff base for the foil.  There will need to be some sanding of the treated paper with 400 and maybe 600 sandpaper to smooth the cyano coated surface.  Once coated you'd be able to apply the liquid soap and water to this surface without too much fear of deforming the paper for foil application.  I think a strip of old "T-shirt" for the application/spreading of the cyano would work without leaving a lot of fuzz from the material.    I believe it's Prosper on HPA that used this technique on his stressed skin balsa fuselages and wings.  I believe it was 1/32" and thinner balsa he used, coated with cyano.
You'll want to be very careful of the odor this gives off, it can be very toxic and attack your sinus tissue.  I don't know if the odorless would work as well?

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 24th, 2019 at 9:42pm
Well gentlemen:

I've got some good news.  At least the initial appearance of good news anyway.  I've decided to go directly with the vinyl on top of the glossy paper as an experiment on the wing itself.  I was especially paying attention to the glossy paper butting up against the balsa leading edge when covering all of this with the vinyl. 

Believe it or not, without any filler whatsoever, I found it works rather well.  I'm using chrome vinyl.  Not the Flite Metal.  That will come a bit later.  I was just curious as to whether or not my thoughts and ideas along with your inputs had any merits.  Seems like things are going good.  The chrome vinyl has one major drawback.  That it has a tendency to bubble under warm temperatures, say above 75-80 degrees.  So this is where the Flite Metal experiment will come in and we'll see what happens.

The first photo shows a top overall view of the panel.  I used a combination of pounce wheel for the rivets, and both a black ball point pen and fine point marker as panel outlines.  I had to be careful not to press too hard with the ball point pen or it would leave an impression into the foil surface.  That in itself isn't too bad except that it also affects the surrounding surface areas as exemplified by my past experiments using plastic instead of paper.  The outcome was the same. 

It appears the fine point marker has good panel detail, but comes off somewhat exaggerated.  The ball point pen paneling is far more subtle, maybe too subtle.  I might have to carefully go over the panel lines twice with the pen. 

The next series of photos show various close ups of the leading edge of the wing and the vinyl wrapped around.  The small dent you may see over one of the stringers is actually the vinyl overlapping the glossy paper and in direct contact with the stringer.  So, the glossy paper is serving as a pretty good solid, yet flexible base surface for the vinyl covering.  More importantly, this covering really does a good job wrapped around the leading edge without any filler.  That really caught me off guard.

I have to keep reminding myself that this is vinyl and not the Flite Metal foil.  The use of the foil might result in altogether an entirely different outcome. 

The last photo shows the underside of the wing and how the vinyl is wrapped over the leading edge.  It's being held in place with tape as the sticky backing to the vinyl really doesn't have that much of a frame to grab onto as well as the potentially the adhesive itself is not as strong as the foil. 

I could use some cyano as a means to help hold down the vinyl but that risks me having to cover the whole surface area as Tom suggested.  I also thank you for the "heads up" on the fumes.  I knew that in the back of my mind from past experiences dealing with the cyano glue, but not on this level.  So, I'll definitely pay attention here. 

Finally, with regards to folding a small portion over itself to form an edge or "lip," it was my idea as a way to see if the foil or vinyl will have a jagged edge like a freshly cut piece of metal but not smoothed out, if left unfolded.  I was concerned about that illusion and thought of having a small "lip."  You're right about the possible "bulges" and bumps.  Not a good idea.

So, overall, it appears that my idea of avoiding all of that infilling, sanding, filling, sanding more and on and on, might just be a good idea after all. 

One final note I forgot to mention.  I purposely rubbed the chrome vinyl onto the glossy paper before I placed it on the wing.  That way, I had a table providing a solid support for me to rub on the covering to the paper.  To do so over the frame would only result in
having the skeletal frame come through.  This was also done with the pens and marker as well as the pounce wheel.

I then left some of the vinyl itself to overlap the leading edge of the wing without the paper backing.  This way, I could  see if the vinyl would be adequate to cover the butt ends of the balsa wood and paper.

Comments or suggestions?
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jan 25th, 2019 at 10:08am
Gary - Looks as if the vinyl over the paper is definitely the answer. To the bubbling concern, I've read that RC builders use pin holes in the covering to eliminate the bubbling problem, especially at some elevated temps. Think I read this in one of Tom's posts sometime back and the pin hole would not be too observable and if you put it in a rivet, maybe gone altogether. Great work.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 25th, 2019 at 6:02pm
I'm liking the progress.  It looks good on the wing.  I'm wondering how you'll join the covered to the uncovered wing sections?  This is going to be a real beauty when finished! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 25th, 2019 at 10:28pm
Well Sky9, Mike, and fellow members:  Good news.  I actually had to force myself to get out of that "lazy mentality" and cut up a few faux ribs, leading edge and trailing edge and whip up a proof-of-concept wing section within an hour or so to test the Flite Metal against the chrome vinyl.  Like you guys, I was so sure that chrome vinyl was the way to go.

It was a close call, but Flite Metal won out. 

One just has to be extremely aware of the strong adhesive backing and also the sensitivity of the foil itself to even the tiniest particles of dust on the undersurface, or else the polished surface will magnify it several times over.  When it comes to having a clean work area, this foil says it all.

I'll start posting the step-by-step process with the fabrication of the wing section and ending it with several close ups of the foiil surface, the silver paint over the foil (Yep, Mike, the silver painted surface really isn't that bad, in fact, it's darn good!!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 26th, 2019 at 8:38am
In this posting, I'm starting off making a quick faux wing section as my proof-of-concept of testing Flite Metal.  Since it's just a quick test article, I'm not too particular about making sure everything is crisp & clean.  Only smooth on the surfaces which the glossy paper/Flite Metal combination will come in contact.

I used the portions left over from the extra balsa airfoils as my templates that I set aside to make room for the wheel wells. 

From there, I simply stacked them as how I wanted the wing section to turn out.  I wanted the leading edge to have some sort of taper as on the wing to the model,  This way, I could test the folds to more accurately reflect the leading edge wrapping on the wings. 

I simply cut out slots for the faux wing spar and the extra stringers mimicking the original wing structure as close as possible.

I wasn't too concerned with the outcome of the finished frame for appearance's sake.  I decided to add some gussets to help reinforce the framework to give it strength.  Up to this point, I had no idea as to how I was going to add the covering, meaning whether or not I would need to pull tight the covering over the frame, or to hold down the covering to secure to the frame and in the process, adding pressure that might break the frame.

The only things I did take precautions were to sand the surfaces relatively smooth and to ensure that the faux wing leading edge was close to the leading edge of the wing in terms of profile shape

As you can see from the last pictures, it's pretty crude, but effective.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 26th, 2019 at 9:19am
I then used the same type of glossy paper as on my previous experiments so as to maintain some kind of consistency with only variations being the covering themselves. 

I carefully trimmed the glossy paper to match the taper of the leading edge that it will be butted up against.  Notice too, the sides of the paper is also matching the end sides of the last ribs.  At this point, the Flite Metal is simply laying on top for photo purposes.

Just prior to adding the Flite Metal, I added the usual ball point pen panel markings along with the pounce wheel for rivet details on top of the work table. Since I'll be covering over an open skeletal framework, any pressure exerted onto the surface would have pushed through the spaces between the structural members.   
The backing was then peeled off.  Notice how the ball point pen and pounce wheel markings were transferred to the backing.

It was at this point, that I realized the adhesive is really strong!  Think of that sticky shelf paper we all use to line our kitchen shelves and peeling off the sticky backing.  Just multiply the adhesive strength by at least twice, if not three times.  This stuff really sticks.

In this photo, I then applied it to the glossy paper prior to adding the combination to the wing.  I did this in order to help avoid transferring any pressure onto the framework and thereby having ther skeletal structure show through in the form of folds and structural outlines.  The instructions suggest you start from the center of the foil and burnish with your index finger (make sure you washed your hands, or use a cotton glove) as you move outward to the edges.  As you can see, I purposely had the Flite Metal overlap the tapered leading edge of the paper to be wrapped around the leading edge of the faux wing frame.

A close up shows what I mean by this stuff picking up the tiniest dust particle and magnifying it.  You only have to look at it cross-eyed and the Flite Metal will fold over itself and/or pick up small dust.  It really pays to have the area absolutely clean and just as importantly, relatively static free.

 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 26th, 2019 at 9:53am
When applying the Flite Metal, I replaced the sticky backing over the area that was to overlap the leading edge.  This was done to help avoid the sticky portion from accidentally sticking onto any parts of the frame before I had a chance to properly line up everything square.  Once that stuff is stuck on, it'll take an Act of Congress to get it off, let alone just to realign it.  Actually, any portion of  the unprotected foil should be covered, unless it's being directly applied. 

I suppose at this point, I couldv'e used some kind of liquid soap and water solution help act as a suspended lubricant.  Theory being I could glide around the foil covering into place.  Since this was more of just a proof-of-concept, I decided to skip this part.  As luck would have it, if proper precautions are taken, this step won't be necessary.

Now for the results.

Wow  I works!  Not only that, I didn't use any filler whatsoever between the butted glossy paper and the balsa leading edge.  Just as with the chrome vinyl, Flite Metal seems to "bridge" any small gaps. 

Several other views shows the Flite Metal adhering very well to the faux wing.  The "wavy" edges of the foil are slightly hanging over the framework and therefore are not held in place. 

The last picture depicts the underside of the structure and when the time comes to do the wing, I'll just have to take this into account when cutting the foil covering.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by pb_guy on Jan 26th, 2019 at 10:02am
Wow! Shiny! It looks like a delicate process. I would be tempted to 'burnish' it with a Q-tip or something soft on a stick rather than my finger. My fingers are too big. How about 'bubbles'? If you poke it with a fine pin to let out the air, does the damage show too much? Or do you have to go with 'tiny bubbles ... make me whine!' (sung by Don Ho).
ian

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 26th, 2019 at 10:05am
I then decided to mask off a portion of the faux wing section and spray paint the second half silver paint to see how it compares to the bare Flite Metal.

Mike and I were debating the merits of using silver spray paint.

I gotta admit that this silver paint comes off really very well.  I think I'll stick with my original goal of maintainiing accuracy and spray paint the wing with silver paint and leaving the flaps and ailerons natural (foiled) metal.

In the first photo, shows me peeling off the wide masking tape.  I was very pleasantly surprised that it didn't affect the foil in the least and no adhesive residue was left on the surface.

As an added bonus, the silver paint also allowed the rivet and panel lines to show through without any additional reapplication on my part.

It's really difficult to tell apart chrome vinyl from Flite Metal other than the FM will have more pronounced detail from the rivets and panel lines, and of course, the FM will have more adhesive power.  The last photo shows the silver spray paint laid side-by-side to the chrome vinyl.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 26th, 2019 at 10:19am
Finally,  I placed the faux wing next to a roll of chrome vinyl as if it was the fuselage.  The rear half is also painted silver. I purposely had the silver portion of the faux wing next to it.  Not bad, not bad at all!! 

So, after all of this experimentation, I've got a workable solution.  I don't need to scribe anything as it seems that this scribing applies to hardened plastics.  Soft plastics may work, but the lines distort the surrounding areas.  Even then I never quite succeeded in getting the paint/thinner solution to flow.

The silver paint really stands out in a complementary contrast to the foil and helps to bring out the panel detail and subdue the rivet detail which is exactly what I was hoping for.  The ball point pen adds dimention to the paneling as well.  Seems as if I've finally got it.   Whew...  :P

As a post script anyone wishing to have a metal finish can use these postings as a starting point and hopefully avoid some of the pitfalls.  Secondly, the foil covering can be painted over, which for those who may want to have their models finished as stressed skin with rivet detail, can also cut  out foil sections for panels complete with rivet details. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 26th, 2019 at 10:38am
Ian,

In direct reply, Flite Metal doesn't need any pin holes to relieve any gases as the adhesive is extremely strong.  The chrome vinyl will need this type of relief. 

I intend to have my faux wing section sit inside the work area with the temperatures set to very warm to see if it all works out. 

The use of fingers is strictly over large surface areas.  Yes, the instructions also suggest use of burnishing tips and tools.  I would imagine Q-tips might apply to confined areas where delicacy counts.  Otherwise, dull pointed ends of burnishing tools, or the sides of the tools like a side of a long pencil, wll be the trick of trade here.

In summary, the instructions suggest using fingers to start the burnishing process, working from the center outward to the edges and finishing off with burnishing tools.   Your thick fingers will definitely have a good place here.  .... LoL

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 26th, 2019 at 12:07pm
Skye...
You might want to look into the nylon spreaders used in applying auto body filler.  They're non abrasive and used to smooth out vinyl stencils for cars.  Just might work for your wing application. 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 26th, 2019 at 12:22pm
Had no idea that such spreaders existed.... I'll definitely check it out today.  Thanks!!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 26th, 2019 at 1:30pm
Harbor Freight has a package of three different sizes for around $4.00
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 28th, 2019 at 3:59pm
I'll definitely check out Harbor Freight.  They're in Reno (& everywhere else).  I also purchased some cloth gloves from Wal Mart.  They're brown in color and can easily be purchased like 6 for $10.00.  Most people think of cloth gloves as being white.  They're far  more expensive than necessary and the brown ones will do just as well.

I've finally found my solution to my covering dilemma and now it's time to move forward and start the preparation of the wings and start the fabrication of tail feathers to use the covering. 

I intend to paint the main portion of the wings in silver as per original production models of the D variant Mustangs.  From my proof-of-concepts, and photos, it really turned out far better than anticipated.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 4th, 2019 at 1:07am
Good evening everyone I'm baaaack...

I've had several medical issues along with my work schedule and family obligations that really put a dent into my modeling.  However, all is not lost.  I've been busy working (& experimenting as I go along) on the model.

I reviewed all of my previous posts and with acknowledgement to Craig from my previous post back in August about the cockpit interior possibly being a "stunner" I think I'll jump ahead of myself just for a sec and give him and everyone else a taste of what I've been researching in that area.  I was acquiring a lot of detailed photographic information but lacking inboard profile drawings to help give me a perspective as to the relationship of where things are located with respect to each other and the cockpit interior in general.  While surfing the Internet, I came across some amazing CAD drawings of the P-51D done in excruciating detail.  i thought I'd share a few samples with you tonight.

I am going to try experimenting making tiny decals of the cockpit stenciling.  If successful, I'll pass it along. If not.... well, I'll pass it along too. :P

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 4th, 2019 at 1:13am
All this experimenting has been both fruitful and trouble.  I've learned a lot and I trust that everyone else has shared some of the same experience.

With this in mind, it's time to start moving on the project and actually get something done.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 5th, 2019 at 12:42am
We have covered the top portion of the wing near the root with thin strips  of laminations to preserve the curvature, add strength, and still provide clearnace for the detailing of the wheel well areas.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Apr 5th, 2019 at 12:13pm
Looks like the drawing below the plan shot shows a bit more curvature in the front edge of the wheel covers than on the plan.  Which are you going to reproduce?  This is reminiscent of my plastic modeling days of super detailing!!!  I love what you're doing.  She'll be and eye catcher and beauty when done! 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2019 at 11:41pm
Sky9:  Thank you, sir for the observations and compliments.  Actually, the outlines of the wheel well and door covers on Guillow's plans come pretty close to the original outlines of the drawings but the drawings show the outlines of the wheel covers (not the landing gear) goes a bit longer and closer to the center of the fuselage.  The Guillow's plans for the wheel well covers are also pretty close in terms of curvature, except of course the deeper length being closer to the center of the fuselage.  As you can see, from the 2nd picture, a sort of compromise had to be made between the ideal and practical insofar as maintaining both outlines and authenticity. 

That's also been the same challenge when building the S.E.5 as well as the Wright Bros' Flyer.  All of Guillow's kits are pretty accurate up to a point in terms of outlines (not scale).  For example, the Guillow's S.E.5 nose profile is more tapered than the real aircraft which had a more boxy appearance.  Therefore I enlarged the front two formers to allow me to deepen the nose to more accurately reflect that difference. 

In summary, it's a compromise between the builder's desire (moi, for example) and the practicality of building the model and balance it with the length of time and skill necessary to accomplish one's objective and still come out reasonably good.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:15am
If I may gentlmen, I'd like to skip backward just a bit and show that I've basically completed (up to a point) of increasing the depth of the underside surface of the wing.  I also added some extra strips of balsa wood.  The extra strips were then sanded relatively smooth, but trying to maintain some resemblance of curvature.  The strips were uneven so I added some spacklin compound the fill in the difference which also aided me in adding just a bit more depth to the underside.

After the compound dried, it was sanded smooth and tapered to the edges to give some more curvature.

Then the strips/compound were painted flat black.

Why black paint?  I hope to have the undersides of the wing featuring the rectangular cutouts for the shell ejector chutes, (& maybe the drop tanks) but I have absolutely no idea exactly where those ejector chutes will be when adding the underside covering.  Once the covering is in place, the viewer will not be able to see any signs of light balsa, instead, the ejector chute cutouts will be black...

Had to think waaay ahead.  Hopefully this will all play out.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Kerak on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:06am
Great work, Gary...that is known as the "lath and plaster" approach to modeling.  ;) :D ;D  Nice touch on the wing underside...correcting Guillows flat-bottomed airfoil towards the Mustang's symmetrical (or near) design.

Neal

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 7th, 2019 at 4:22pm
Thank you Neal.  Never heard of that term.  Guess we learn something new everyday.  Please keep me updated! 

Here's a sample picture of the underside to the Mustang and the ejector chutes.

I also took into consideration about the (remote) possibilities of adding drop tanks.  Should that take place, I'd like to think the strips and "lath and plaster" will have enough strength to withstand the added weight.

Of all places to have drop tanks, they had them between the ejector chutes....  :P
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:41pm
As much as detailing the interior of wheel wells appear to be simple matter of gluing some wiring here and there to simulate plumbing and stuff, it's far from the truth as I knew from just thinking about how to go about it.  Then I had the "fun" of finding out it's even more difficult than I had imagined.  I knew I did not have the convenience of detailing a wheel well out of a pre-molded plastic kit.  Everything had to be scratched out, even the cutouts to the wheel well outlines on the underside surface of the wing. 

Adding all this was how to go about reinforcing the cutouts such that they wouldn't be crushed or sagged by my thumbs reaching inside to detail the interior with all that plumbing.  I could go on, but let's take this step by step and anyone having any ideas, it would be greatly appreciated.

I figured I would start out by having a "ceiling" for the interior.  Knowing ahead of time that I would be painting the interior at least some kind of green-colored zinc chromate, I used glossy paper.  The film on the paper will help against wrinkling and bubbling from the paint.  This paper was then cut out to the outline of the whole interior itself.  This way, I wouldn't be confined.  I had options of deciding where I could place all that plumbing, the outlines of the  wheel wells doors and more. 

The paper was then glued to the underside of the laminated faux ribs near the wing root.  From there, I added a small piece of glossy paper in the shape of a small faux rib to the far end. Now it looks like an open 'room."

Looking at it from the top, I can see how my "ceiling" would look before covering.  I also knew that I was giving up some "headroom" in the form of about 1/8" give or take 1/32."   Some purist, looking at the interior will know that it would be a stretch to squeeze in the landing gear, tires and all, and still have room for all that plumbing.  I'm hoping no one will notice and equally, y'all won't tell....  ::)

One thing, all that masking tape is to protect the machine gun bay area that was posted awhile back.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:59pm
I used my own detailed close up photos as a starting point of reference.  Since I had long erased my files of the Mustang, I just phpto-copied them from the archives of this site....   

I also Googled some photos.  I could probably post them, but I'm not sure if they're considered public domain and if I'm allowed to post them.  Can someone advise me on this?

I'll tell ya one thing's for sure.  People thought I was crazy for sticking my head inside a wheel well and taking detailed pictures about 35 years ago, but today, people are really getting inside those interiors.

As you can see, the small supports are there for several reasons such as serving as a conduit for wiring, plumbing and support of the outer skin for the underside surface of the wing as well as maintaining the outline of the wheel well. 

We can also see that the "ceiling" is really the skin to the top surface of the wing.  There are also several stringers running spanwise along the interior.  These stringers are also "cutting" into the supports.  It's from these photos & several others from Google that I used as a reference for my interiors.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 7th, 2019 at 11:19pm
From the onset, I figured I would attach the landing gear by bending music wire that was provided in the Guillow's kit 90 degrees and drilling a hole to the small faux rib and epoxying it into place.  This way, I could preserve the whole length of the strut while still having the strength of the attachment.

I decided at  this point to temporarily attach the wings to the fuselage and see what I might be up against.  As can easily be seen, everything appears good and at the same time, I would have to complete the underside outline either after the wing was attached to the fuselage, or before.  Either way posed a challenge in detailing the interior of the wells as the under surface of the wings.

One thing I wanted to note: I purposely installed and left in place a rather large main spar.  Guillow's plans do not call for any such spar as the plane was orginally designed for rubber power and therefore to be as light as possible.  It is hoped that this spar will come in handy to compensate for the added weights of the detailed wings and interiors of the wheel wells as well as serving as a backdrop to "decorate" the spar as if it were truly the real spar.

Next, I cut some stringers from Evergreen Plasticstrut.  They really came in  handy. 

Then the stringers were glued into the "ceiling" at places I thought were consistent with the photos.  I glued the stringers on their edges to mimick the real ones.

Finally, I used a rattle can of Rustoleum lime green to simulate the ZC and painted the interior at this point.  This was done for two main reasons: 1) to give me some encouragement that "Gee, I'm really accomplishing something here." and 2) it made sense because I do not have a spray gun to control the spray and wanted to avoid risking over-painting the interior with the supports in place.  The supports would've been small obstacles to the spray and I would have to hold the can over various places to ensure full coverage. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 8th, 2019 at 3:17am
I'm going to show the "lath and sand" method described by Neil to illustrate the efforts of increasing the depth of the undersides of the wing to go from flat to a curved surface.  This is a side profile view and I think it best illustrates my deviation from the Guillow's Clark Y flat surface very well.  The curved surface will also slighly increase as it gets closer to the wing root, which really helps me to add more interior detail. 

For our more astute members who may noticed the traiing edge's abrupt end, rather than a slow taper, it's because the flaps and ailerons are not installed.  The blunt ends represents the trailing edge of the wing as it meets the rounded leading edges of the flying control surfaces.

The fourth pictures # 20 shows best my attempts to add the templates of the faux supports.  The supports themselves will be refined to a more accurate profile seen on some of the previous interior photos of the real aircraft wheel well interiors.  It also shows how I had to cut and re-cut several of these faux ribs to get it "jes' right and tight" as the tolerances are extremely close between the underside skin, the wheel well outlines and the interiors.

The last picture, you can see the challenge of me trying to maintain the slight increase in curvature of the underside of the wing with the potential wheel well cutouts (laid on top) and see how the issue of trying to balance everything comes into play.  On my next series of posts, I'm going to jump ahead of myself to best illustrate the challenges that I'll be facing.






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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 8th, 2019 at 4:25am
Jumping way ahead of the actual construction into a conceptual representation, I believe this next picture best exemplifies my dilemma insofar as maintaining some kind of support for the excess underside skin of the fragile lamination of paper and foil representing the wheel well outline, and will be resistant to such rubbing hand handlng during my attempts to detail the interior. 

Although slighly inaccurate, this method does offer a reasonable amount of security of holding the edges of the outlines.

As mentioned in my previous postings, since I installed the stringers in the "ceiling" that covers the whole interior, I have options as to exactly where to place the outline cutouts.  It's with this in mind, that I'm contemplating to just add the interior detailing such as plumbing, electrical wiring and linkages prior to covering the wheel well area with the underside skin wheel that includes the wheel well outlines. 

I could probably make extensive use of tweezers and toothpicks but I'm sure that there will be certain details that just requires my oversized thumbs, which would pose a risk to damaging the outer skin, should I install it first.

This doesn't include I haven't installed the two wing panels together......  :P
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 12th, 2019 at 11:32pm
Ever have one of those moments when all of the careful planning and exquisite details being laid in place to your modeling project,  when all of a sudden, a fellow member offers some decals and suggestions and ... Blam! Everything comes to a screeching halt.  Just had one the other day and now will have to focus on the cockpit interior in order that the rest of the model can be completed.   

My Mustang is being built in a manner that I can't finish off one portion of the plane without first implementing and fabricating a small part, a small portion, a small detail and absolutely has to be finished beforehand.

If it hadn't been for our fellow member Mike, whom I shall forever be grateful, I wouldn't have thought of the missing links and steps needed to take.  Thank you Mike!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:43am
Gary - You are welcome and very glad to be able to help. Getting those small but necessary details in mind helps with the path to success and completion. Your assessment of nearly everything revolving around the cockpit is spot on and is exactly what is happening to my Marcoux Bromberg project. Working through the wing rib design and the actuating cable layout sends me back to the cockpit for connections. Your progress is terrific and am watching with great anticipation. If I can be of any other help, you know where to find me, write any time, I'm always there.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:23pm
Thank you Mr. Mike! 

I'm now researching all of the details for the stenciling too.  If I make any progress and actually start cutting wood or paper to start the cockpit, you'll be the first to know.  Every time I think I've got it all, something new pops up and puts me back to the starting gate.

I feel your pain when it comes to the cockpit....   ;)  If you're still serious about actually connecting the cockpit controls to the flying surfaces, you've got my respect.  Biplane Guy (Keith) does it all the time, but off the dining room table. 


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 15th, 2019 at 12:38am
Gentlemen and Mike:

As Mike said, "It's back to the cockpit" and so it goes on this thread too.  I thought of finishing off the interior detailing of the wheel wells, but to do this affectively, I have to glue the wing panels to the fuselage.  The reason being the main spar.  It runs continuously through the wheel well interiors.  That in itself is not a real issue so much as all the plumbing and electrical wiring also runs along the main spar.  Initially, I thought of simply splitting up the plumbing and all the details and finish each wing panel separately, but I knew I would have to be exacting in placement of each accessory and currently without the aid of some cyborg machine I couldn't possibly be that accurate.  So, in order to be able to glue the panels to the fuselage, I have to first finish the fuselage.  To finish the fuselage means to first finish the cockpit interior, then the air scoops on the belly and so it goes.....  Mike, I (really) feel your pain....  ;)

To begin the cockpit detailing requires more research...  Sometimes this part of the build just doesn't end. 

I'd thought you might like to see what I'm up against and part of the reason why I was trying to avoid the detailing the cockpit interior in the first place.   When I first truly had a chance to study the interior, I said to myself "Ya gotta be kidding!"  My first reaction was to just stick a picture of the main instrument panel on the face board, close up the cockpit and be done with it.  The first picture is a "typical" D variant Mustang interior.  You can easily see that to create something even close to this picture in all its complexity from scratch with no readily available pieces or components that can be purchased from an aftermarket source (and sorry, I can't afford 3-D printing) can be daunting at best.

Regards to 3-D printing, sometimes it really works great and other times, I've seen the results look like a complex multi-component accessory molded into one piece that looks like well, cheap plastic.  I'm sure I'll get some reaction on this one.

What I needed was some place to start.  The best way (for me anyway) has always been with an inboard profile drawing, preferably all four sides, if you include an overview.  I can easily see how everything goes together and the important part?  Is the perspective of each component as it relates to its place and size to one another. 

The second picture shows my previously depicted CAD drawing.  This is fantastic.  If you stare at it long enough, things actually start to make sense, especially when compared to the first photograph.  However, inboard profiles and photographs can be an illusion as I was quickly to discover (at least before it was too late).

The third picture shows the same left side wall as the CAD outline with the added dimension of how the side wall really looks.  You can easily see that it is definitely NOT just a plain sided wall with the accessories bolted to it.  The side wall has nooks, crannies, vertical supports and more.  In this case, it really shows that the throttle quadrant is "nestled" within the nook as opposed to simply sticking out on its own. 

If you look at the first photograph of the whole interior and compare it to the third picture, you can appreciate how such an illusion takes place.

So two things come to mind:  Firstly, it really pays to do a thorough research and secondly, I've got a lot more work cut out for me..... :P
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Apr 16th, 2019 at 11:26am
It's always a challenge to replicate something to scale...Skye!  For me you've shown tremendous skill in showing what can be shown within reason for the scale that is being built.  Size is always a limiting factor for replicating details.   Your finding a very acceptable balance!  Thanks for your dedication to authenticity!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 17th, 2019 at 9:43pm
Sky9, thank you for those words of encouragement.  They're much needed here.  It's challenging to say the least.  For the R/C types of 1/5th scale or larger, they have ready-made aftermarket cockpit interiors that I've seen are incredible.  Initially, I thought they would look phony with all-plastic details and literally everything molded together to create a mess.  Not so!  They really show a tremendous amount of fine detail and when done right, it's almost difficult to tell the differencre between the model and the real thing. 

Funny, in the plastic models, which is much smaller in scale than the 1/15th Guillow's Mustang and on the opposite end of the modeling world, they too, have ready-made aftermarket accessories to super detail their own cockpit interiors with extremely detailed photo-etched brass, resin parts, metal fittings and more.  Here I am, sitting between the two extremes and have to scratch out just about everything.

Yep, it's a challenge....  :o

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 17th, 2019 at 10:03pm
To begin with, I needed to compare the profiles of the CAD drawings with those of details shown in the picture for the left side and use them as a reference for my scale to Guillow's Mustang.  I used a combination of the lower canopy frame, with what I interpreted to be the yellow-colored fuselage structural frame, and the skeletal structure of the balsa fuselage.  I figured it was going to be easy to simply follow the outlines of the yellow lines as they seem to have that "dip" which suggested a good reference point. 

So, I started using them but after about 3 different trials, nothing seemed to go right.  The components to the side details were not matching to either the balsa fuselage or vice versa.  Something wasn't right.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 17th, 2019 at 10:48pm
To be sure, I laid the balsa fuselage over the scale drawings of a "D" variant Mustang that I've been using as reference.  Admittedly this is a simplification of replication to scale, but it works for me in my humble apartment.  No CADs, no gimmicks.   It should work, right?  I even  took into account that little "dip" on the structural framework.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 17th, 2019 at 10:59pm
From there, preliminary drawings of the cockpit inboard profile were made, both right side view and left.  i also included the wing saddle of the fuselage to see exactly how far downward I could add the cockpit floor.  Turned out I had just about 1/8" left.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Apr 17th, 2019 at 11:16pm
Gary...when I used to build plastic models and detail the cockpits, I'd build a cockpit bucket with detachable sides from the floor.  Detail the sides and the floor separately with the seat detail and anything behind the seat detailed with the floor then slip the side into the fuselage and button it up with the floor.  You've probably already figured this out yourself...but that's the way I attack the cockpit! :D ;D ;)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 18th, 2019 at 12:44am
Sky9:

That's exactly my intentions as well.  At least for now, that is.  Things have a way of either working out or interferring.  I figured the "drop in" cockpit route might be the way to go.  Only issue, is how to fit the vertically detailed side walls to conform to the curved outer skin of the fuselage.  Or at least fit the cockpit in such a way that it will drop in and still be tight around the boundaries. 

I would definitely detail and install the floor area first.  I'm at the point of trying to determine the exact location of the seat so I can detail the foot runners up to the rudder pedals.  From there, I can also detail the side walls such that the controls and their locations in relationship to the seat would make sense and look like they are all in proper perspective. 

From there, I'm thinking I would (initially) detail the side walls separately, then fit them in one at a time.  It might be easier that way.  To go the "drop box" route, I'd also have to take into consideration of the main instrument shroud.  The last items would be the seat and control column.  Because the pilot's seat sticks out above the fuselage decking, I'll probably have to wait until just before installing the canopy, which means the fuselage itself would have to be detailed and finished first.

Lots of "what if's" going through my mind and lots of mental energy spent on planning far ahead.  That's also what happened when I super detailed the S.E.5.  The Mustang really takes this level of planning to another level.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 18th, 2019 at 1:31am
That's when it dawned on me that the "dip" was the source of my troubles.  For some reason, it doesn't match up with the CAD inboard profile drawings and it didn't match up with the drawings of the Mustang. 

I carefully cut out a strip of cardboard paper and placed it along the canopy "rails" of the balsa fuselage.  That was my problem.  It was after I placed the strip of paper along the canopy outlines that it finally made sense. 

Now I had to redraw all of the interior detailing to their new locations.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 18th, 2019 at 1:41am
Back to the drawing board.  This time, I took the added precautions of cutting out my profile drawing and trial-fitting it inside the fuselage with the canopy temporarily taped down.  You can just barely see  the outlines of the pilot's seat and head rest.   This way, I could better ascertain their locations, and from there, the rest of the details as well.

Now I had to redraw all of the side wall details, including the pilot's seat, to their new locations.  This drawing was repeatedly inserted within the balsa fuselage several times to ascertain I was getting everything in order. 


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 24th, 2019 at 12:01am
So, I went back to drawing the cockpit interior side panels (again) and this time I was more optimistic.  Yet, despite my catching that little descrepancy of that "dip" on the cockpit rails, something still didn't add up.  I kept trying repeatedly to match up the interior details with those of the model and the scale drawing.  Something was missing....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 24th, 2019 at 12:06am
Tried the left side panel and see if that would work.  Notice how the trim wheel support appears too boxy.  Things weren't adding up in the interior to match up with the model.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 24th, 2019 at 12:09am
This time, I decided to replicate ther CAD drawings to approximate the scale of the model and see why everything was askewed.   I found my answer.  The pilot's seat.  I used the canopy frame between the sliding portion and the fixed windshield as a reference point.  Comparing the CAD drawings with the scale drawing on the background, the pilot's seat is further back.  This is where one has to decide which way to go.  I oped for the CAD drawing and decided to move the seat further back to accommodate the details of the interior.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 24th, 2019 at 12:18am
Another discovery.  The rudder pedals were too far forward on the CAD drawings to accommodate them onto the model without cutting the former in front.  I had already deleted a couple of formers within the fuselage in the interest of detailing the cockpit interior and I didn't want to risk weakening the frame any further despite the infill of balsa strips.  So the rudder pedals had to go.

Crazy as it may sound for those of you who know me and my little OCD, I figured I would also save a little bit of work and time.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 24th, 2019 at 12:23am
Now to finish off the infill and paint the interior........
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 24th, 2019 at 12:26am
Black.....  Anybody guess why?
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Apr 26th, 2019 at 7:54am
The zinc chromate green looks better and is more dense over a base coat, that's why I use a white base under red and blue. At least that is my initial thought, as to your black base coat.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Craig 3 on Apr 27th, 2019 at 6:31am
Amazing work! I'm away for a few months and all kind of stuff happens!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 28th, 2019 at 1:33am
Mike, 
Excellent guess and you're correct.  I could've used zinc chromate colors on the background instead of black; like the deep reds and blues you described,  they won't give the depth of the zinc colored surfaces, or the shadows in corners and recesses of the interior.  It's sort of like a pin wash of the plastic media but without the use of paints and thinners.

Craig:  LoL

I sincerely thank you for your compliment (I think). 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 28th, 2019 at 1:54am
While I was focusing on the cockpit interior and (finally) getting the correct perspectives of the accessories that will make up the interior, I was worried about all that double strip planking on the outside of the fuselage.  As noted in the beginning, Guillow's fuselage came very close in overall outline to the scale drawing.  There were a few exceptions and the width and depth of the fuselage was one of them.  As the calipers confirmed, the Guillow's fuselage was a bit thinner than the scale drawing.  Not much mind you, but enough for my little ol' OCD to kick in. 

Instead of recreating new and larger formers or breaking up the existing ones and adding strips of balsa as spacers in between, I felt just simply doubling up on the strip planking would be a good alternative.  Either way, I knew there would be a little extra work involved. 

However, I forgot to factor in the plastic canopy that came with the kit.  The plastic canopy was molded only for one size and that size involved tissue covering over the original sized formers.  Not the added thickness of the fuselage........ Duh.

Compounding my "Senior Moment" here I also overlooked the plastic nose.   I was faced with the possibility of having to create a new nose from a carving block, all of the added work of the underside lip and the front section just above the lip that blends in with the propeller spinner. 

Just when I was about to give myself a pat on the back for all this planning & foresight..........

I decided to double check the plastic canopy and nose.....

As can be seen, the canopy is definitely more narrower than the widened fuselage.  Right at the "dip" you can easily see that the infilled balsa strip to the canopy is more narrow and somewhat recessed within the fuselage.   The plastic nose seems to fit "okay."  Hmmm
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 28th, 2019 at 2:06am
Then I had a "Eureka" moment.  It dawned on me that I'm super detailing the cockpit interior.  It would'n't make much sense for me to leave the canopy closed.  Sooo, I figured that with the bubble portion of the canopy slid back in the opened position, the narrow fuselage rear decking will help cover for the deficiency.  Nobody would notice, right?

Just to be sure, I'll add a scale canopy brace that is also on the full sized Mustang.  Plus I'll add some wire as a reinforced interior frame to help hold the rear canopy in the "wide" position.

I'll just have to carefully blend in the extra planking by sanding down the thickness almost to ridiculous thinness just as it meets the canopy.  I'll probably had to use some Spackling Compound as well. 

The plastic nose fits!  I discovered that it also has some extra room for the side planking.  I'm back in the game.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 28th, 2019 at 2:10am
Insofar as the windshield part of the canopy, as can be see (again) in this photo, I found out if I "squish" down the plastic, it widens just enough to compensate for the added width of the fuselage.  I only need to glue it in the "squished" position.   Sometimes just boneheaded approaches works....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 5th, 2019 at 8:02pm
Here's another really good set of pictures showing "before" and "after" squishing the plastic canopy down on the frame. 

The first picture shows "before."  You can just see the black painted balsa strip peeking out from under the canopy forward windshield.

The second picture shows my thumb holding down the canopy and squishing it wide.  You can easily see that it seems to solve the problem.  Weird?  Yeah, but I'll run with it.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 6th, 2019 at 12:54am
I've also decided to finish up double planking the fuselage so I can start on the cockpit detailing itself.  As you can see from the pictures, the second layer really does a good job of covering up the infill and makes itself almost invisible.

I started out with a large piece of balsa and simply ran it down the entire length of the fuselage, since most of it was slab sided and had little curvature.

The pieces that followed were easy to cut and simply glued into place next to one another.  Really made for planking the fuselage a lot easier and much faster.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by bigrip74 on May 6th, 2019 at 3:05am
I have been following your build and picking up some tips. Thanks in advance.  I was interested in how you cut out the area for the cockpit.

Bob

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 6th, 2019 at 11:21pm
I've also decided to finish up double planking the fuselage so I can start on the cockpit detailing itself.  As you can see from the pictures, the second layer really does a good job of covering up the infill and makes itself almost invisible.

I started out with a large piece of balsa and simply ran it down the entire length of the fuselage, since most of it was slab sided and had little curvature.

The pieces that followed were easy to cut and simply glued into place next to one another.  Really made for planking the fuselage a lot easier and much faster.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 6th, 2019 at 11:55pm
Thank you Bob for your interest.

It's really just a matter of following the original outlines of the basic frame.  Instead of tissue, I used balsa infill,  From there. I overlapped with a second layer of strips of balsa on top, continuing the original plan of following the basic outlines of the original infill.

When it came to the cockpit outlines, I simply followed the outlines from the basic infill.  Just have to cut slant angles to conform to the cockpit outlines.  I'm really venturing into unknown waters myself, although this is common on ship building.

Have to admit that I'm really not looking forward to sanding away most of the double fill balsa strips.  As mentioned previously they were installed for two basic reasons:  added strength and added thickness of the fuselage to conform to the basic outline to closer to replicate the scald outlines.

By sanding, in addition to smoothing out the overall finish, I'm actually trying to reshape the fuselage to more closely resemble the former sections of the full size Mustang.  This is especially noticeable along the belly scoop where the fuselage is more squared off as opposed to being rounded.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on May 7th, 2019 at 1:06pm
Skye...are you using 1/16" or 1/32" balsa for the double planking?  Looks like this will leave you a very smooth and metalic panel look to this beauty!  Following with interest to see what new thing you'll try!!! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 7th, 2019 at 11:05pm
Tom,

Thank you for your interest.  I'm using 1/16th strips of soft balsa for two basic reasons.  First and foremost is I'm going to be sanding down the double planks and that in itself will reduce the thickness of the 1/16th closer to 1/32nd or even thinner.  Secondly, the 1/16th thick secondary planks gives me the option of shaping the fuselage as I go along on sanding.  For example, on the lower portion of the fuselage near the belly scoop, the formers or sections of the fuselage is more squared than round.  By having a little extra thickness on my side gives me the option of whether or not to sand more or less around those strategic areas.  My next posts will show why.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 7th, 2019 at 11:46pm
You ever notice how even the best of plans, despite carefully reviewing all of the steps in your mind before cutting that first piece of wood, somehow doesn't cover all of the details?  There's always a little "surprise" here and there.  This is such an instance.  My intentions is to cut out a small section of the belly scoop area and extend the cooling flap -for the lack of a better description.  The Guillow's Mustang features an extremely rounded belly scoop.  The first two pictures show the balsa infilled fuselage upside down revealing the belly scoop.  Looking carefully, you can see that the whole scoop area is really rounded, not squared off.

Compare these two pictures with the third showing the real Mustang in a steep right bank, revealing its belly scoop at where the radiator cooling flap is opened.  You can easily see that the corners are somewhat squared off.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 7th, 2019 at 11:55pm
This is the belly scoop area on the real Mustang and where I would like to replicate into model form.  As the first picture shows, the corners are squared off.  Subsequent photos show the details of the insides of the scoop and the radiator cooling itself. 

By giving the fuselage double planks, I'm hoping that the sides will give me the added thickness that I can simply "flap top" the sanding of the belly scoop almost down to the original infill and sort of round off the corners along the sides. 

This is what I meant by "shaping" the fuselage through sanding.

Granted, it won't be completely squared on as on the full sized article, but I think will be enough for me to cut out the area and extend the belly scoop.  If I left the fuselage underside rounded in its original form, I think the lowering of the cooling flap would look somewhat off.  Opinions would be welcomed.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on May 8th, 2019 at 1:48am
That's the problem of trying to replicate the actual aircraft in miniature...I definitely see what you're speaking of...but I'm sure you'll find a solution! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by alfakilo on May 8th, 2019 at 7:01am
To my eye, the scoop is more than "somewhat" squared off...it is definitely squared off!! And the fuselage behind the scoop is more squared off than rounded on the bottom making it look a little "boxy".

The model is relatively small so changing the contours of the scoop and rear fuselage shouldn't be too difficult, almost an extension of your double planking.

Perhaps this...run a 1/8" stringer from the scoop inlet to the tail on each side. Then add 1/16" planking to the stringers. This thickness may allow some sanding to round things off a little. Filler to finish things off.

Something like this, looking nose to tail:


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 8th, 2019 at 8:25am
Alf:

That sounds like a great idea.  Let me see if I can also figure out how to bend the 1/8" square stringers to compound curves without breaking, to follow the contours of the rear fuselage around the belly and air scoop.  There are some pretty sharp curves.

I'll also need to find away to fill in the space between the original double-planked skin and the 1/8 stringers and "new' skin such that I can cut out the scoops and tail wheel areas.

I'll definitely kick it around.
Thank you!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 8th, 2019 at 10:10pm
Bob:

I thought you would appreciate this posting of the wood strips around the cockpit area.

The first photo shows the rough strips.  I often wondered if many of our fellow modelers will lightly sand their projects before posting and make it all seem soooo perfect.  Well, I'm here to tell ya, it ain't so with me.

After I finished adding the last strip of balsa.  The beveled ends looked like they were almost braided.  The thought of those classic Chris Craft Barrel Back boats that used to cruise around the lakes back in the 1950's came to mind.  They had the most beautiful laminated wood finishes anywhere! 

I thought (briefly) why not finish the Mustang in a "Woody" finish?  Sort of like those wood-sided station wagons in the 50's, Chris Craft boats, as well as  the old Bellanca and Curtiss aircraft which also had wood sides finishes that rivaled that of classic wood furniture.  Lots of wood stain, and heavy on the varnish....  I think it would be so cool. 

Ahem, back to reality, the second picture shows the same rear decking around the cockpit but only after lightly sanding.  As you can see, the strips are almost starting to disappear.  Those slight dips and undulations will eventually be sanded smooth, but I wanted you to see how this is all turning out, before the strips disappear completely. 

Well, I've finally finished the stripping of the whole fuselage.  Now I can "enjoy" the one thing I've been trying to avoid since the very beginning of this build.  In fact, it was part of my mantra.  But no longer.  It's called..... sanding.  And more sanding.  In this case, I'll be sanding a lot. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 8th, 2019 at 10:40pm
If you can recall, I pre-fitted the front cowl to the nose of the model to see if double planking would even be viable.  Turned out that I could do it.

As the third picture shows after completion of the planking, that front cowl is (now) really tight. 

That got me to start thinking about the rest of the fuselage and how I was going to "sand to shape."   Yep, lotsa sanding going to be done here.  I also had to double check the belly air scoop plastic piece and see how that was going to fit.

As the last picture shows, the planking around the plastic air scoop is oversized.  This is exactly what I wanted.  I figured it would be better (not necessarily easier) to sand down the planking to fit the plastic scoop rather than trying to cover it up with either additional wood filler, which would be awkward and probably look out of place or using some kind of filler such as Spackling Compound. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by alfakilo on May 9th, 2019 at 7:16am

Skyediamonds wrote on May 8th, 2019 at 10:10pm:
I thought (briefly) why not finish the Mustang in a "Woody" finish?  Sort of like those wood-sided station wagons in the 50's, Chris Craft boats, as well as  the old Bellanca and Curtiss aircraft which also had wood sides finishes that rivaled that of classic wood furniture.  Lots of wood stain, and heavy on the varnish....  I think it would be so cool. 
 


I think it would look great!

Back in the 70s, I bought this Berkeley FW-190 UC kit and fiddled with it for a number of years before deciding to finish it as a display model using the planking in the kit as a starting point. I think I used a shellac to finish it with. Many years later, here's the result...doesn't look a bit different from then!!

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 9th, 2019 at 10:21am
Alf:

Now that's one cool model!  Really looks timeless.  I never would've thought of that. 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 9th, 2019 at 10:53am
Alf:

I decided to take up on your observation and suggestion. 

First, I decided to reference to the scale outlines of the Mustang that I've been using as a guide along this build.  The drawing shows the fuselage profile.  I then focused on the belly area. 

Just as importantly, the drawing also reveals inboard sections of the fuselage  and they were arranged in alphabetical order.

Looking at the drawings showed that the fuselage is indeed, "squarish" along the belly scoop area and then blends into a roundish area around the tail section.  This is especially noticeable along sections labeled "F," "G," "H," and "I."
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 9th, 2019 at 11:03am
In my attempts to start off modifying the underside of the fuselage,  I tried using 1/8" square balsa strip as a starting point to change the profile to a more "squarish" section.  I even soaked the wood.  Hmmmm

Then I thought of something that dawned on me and referenced to the drawing of the fuselage.  This time, I decided to overlay the model fuselage on top of the drawing.  This is where I discovered that the fuselage planking had achieved my original goal of "fattening" it up to match the outlines. 

It was at this point, that if I decided to add more material to square off the fuselage, then it would be too much and out of outline and scale.  So, I'm back to my original plans of adding the double planking and then "sanding the fuselage (down) to shape."

Here, you can see the "before" double planking and the nose outline from the drawing is just visible behind the model fuselage;  and "after" the double planking as the fuselage is laid over the drawing and you can easily see that it's pretty fat.  It will require me to sand down the fuselage to the outlines of the drawing.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by alfakilo on May 9th, 2019 at 11:11am
Looks good and I think the cooler door will work out fine now!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 9th, 2019 at 11:17am
Alf:

Thanks.  I'll still keep you updated as I progress.  Thank you for your suggestion and glad to know I wasn't alone in my observation of the squarish belly.

I should add, that when sanding down the fuselage to "shape" I will sand the belly more flat to help square off the underside.  That extra balsa planking will give me that option.  It won't be perfect, but it will be better than a totally rounded bottom.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 10th, 2019 at 8:35pm
Good afternoon to one and all,

I made some progress today.  I started sanding the fuselage belly balsa strips overlay down to the original infill.  My careful planning actually worked this time.

The first picture shows the "before" sanding and the rounded belly is easily seen.  The fuselage is upside down and this shot is as if you were near the nose, looking at the air scoop toward the rear tail.

The second picture is obviously posed for this shot, but it does illustrate what my intentions were and how I approached the idea of "flattening" out the bottom of the fuselage.  It also validated what I've been planning all along and that was to "sand to shape" the fuselage.  Sort of like a sculpture slowly removing bits and pieces of a large block to help reveal the artwork inside.
"
The third picture shows what appears to be an oval flat area.  This is where I started sanding the extra balsa down.

The fourth picture shows where I am now.  That flattened area goes all the way down the curvature of the belly scoop to near the tail wheel area. It's not going to get the underside of the fuselage nearly as flat as it is on the full size Mustang, but it's something that I'm comfortable and helps me to add the doors to the radiator and oil coolant systems and still be within "tolerances" of trying to achieve a reasonably close-to-scale model. 

Next step, I'm going to add some Spackling Compound.  Besides filling in the wood grains and gaps,  I will mold it a bit and when dried, sand that into further shape.  So, it'll be a bit more "flatter" still.  Then the whole fuselage will get the same treatment of "sanding to shape" followed by more Spackling until I'm happy with the final results. 

From there, my intentions are to cut out the areas for the radiator door, oil vents and  tail wheel.  Once that's done, then I'll finish the cutouts and add primer and start the cockpit interior. 

I figured by following these steps in order, I can sand away as much as needed and avoid as much saw dust as possible getting into the cockpit detailing.   
 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 19th, 2019 at 1:10am
As you can see from the first picture, my approach to flattening out the underside of the fuselage was really working out well.  Sooo, I figured why stop now?

Wrong. 

As you can easily see from the next two photos, I went too far and sanded right through the original infill.  Shoulda stopped when I was ahead.  I wonder how many of us have done the same thing in Life.

Oh well, I can always cover it up a bit with some Spackling Compound and "sand to shape" from there.

Lesson learned.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 19th, 2019 at 1:28am
Now comes more research into the area of ducting the radiator and oil coolers.  As you can see from all of the enclosed pictures, they give me a very good idea of what I can expect to do, they still do not give me all of the information I really needed.

Do I just cut a small slot?  Then from there, I add a variable outlet door?

Or do I cut whole thing out including the ducting, coolers & variable outlet doors?

I then had to resort to using pictures from plastic models as my next reference source as the next posting will reveal some answers.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 19th, 2019 at 1:42am
As you can see from the next set of pictures of different plastic models of the Mustang including the real one, I have my answers.  One shows the variable outlet door open and the other completely closed.

As you can see from the last picture, even though the variable outlet door is completely closed, the ramp to the radiator is still very much exposed.  This means I would have to fabricate a complete ramp/cooler/variable outlet.  Only this time, I'll follow Tom's original suggestion about a "Drop-Box" cockpit and employ a "drop-box" complete assembly into the (soon to be) large cutout.

So, I (now) know that I'll have to perform some major surgery.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 23rd, 2019 at 12:21am
The first step was to start researching exactly where to cut the openings for the radiator, oil and tail wheel.  I also needed to supplement the drawings to help me determine exactly how much material would need to be cut away.

In another words for the radiator cooler for example, do I simply cut a small slot the width of the fuselage and install the ramp from there?  Or do I cut out the whole area and install both the radiator screens, the ramp and the side walls?  Once again, the drawings and plastic models came to my help.

The first picture shows the detailed drawing of the underside of the fuselage and the general outlines of the cut outs.  But that was as far as it goes.  I needed more information and the next couple of pictures helped me to determine to the extent I needed to cut away any wood material.

I included photos of the full sized Mustang and the variable inlet ramps in open position.  As you can see they're very detailed and close up but not enough information provided to help me determine the areas needed to be cut away.

In the end, it was the plastic models that really gave me the detailed information.  One depicts the ramp fully opened and the other showed it to be fully closed.  Now I know I would have to perform major surgery and cut out (far) more than a simple slot.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 23rd, 2019 at 8:50am
Well, I must've repeated myself twice on the planning stages.  Now it's time to start cutting out the openings.  I started out marking with a pencil.  Believe it or not, pencils really do work on wood; and get this, you can erase the marking just like as if you were working on paper. 

Next I cut the openings using an X-Acto knife.  This allows me to carefully cut through some of the more fragile areas and to help me access which areas I should sand off instead of cutting and which areas I can cut using a little more force.  Had I decided to use a Dremel with a rotating saw blade, I think I would've ended up causing more damage, as there's a risk that thing could get carried away and literally end up cutting far more than intended.

The end results here, looks pretty ragged and that's to be expected.

I chose to cut first, rather than adding filler compound to the overly sanded areas as I wanted to be able to see which areas I should be careful and which areas also had the formers within the fuselage to help me determine how to cut around them. 

Besides, I would be adding filler anyway and might as well avoid doing the same thing twice (which I ended up doing anyway).
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 27th, 2019 at 10:36pm
As you could well imagine from my last post, that cut for the radiator inlet ramp was a rough cut. 

The time now for filler, using the ol' tried and true Spackling Compound. 

The second picture shows that with some careful application of the filer compound and sanding, the results were not too bad.

However, I noticed that some improvements to the cuts for the oil cooler, the radiator inlet ramp and tail wheel could be made using more compound, allowing it to dry and then carefully trimming/ sanding, the results yielded a more squared and clean cut along the edges. 

The second and last pictures show what I'm trying to achieve.  In the second picture (among many other details) the right side of the cut to the large radiator inlet ramp is slightly curved inward.  I decided to use some more compound to help reshape the edge.

The last picture shows the right edge more straight; and so it went back and forth, adding some compound here, cutting there, sanding some more and going on and on with each cutout.

The tail wheel was next and so on.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 28th, 2019 at 10:16pm
Now the fuselage underside is given a spray of primer to help see which spots need to be done over or touched up. 

Looks like I'm getting closer.....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on May 28th, 2019 at 10:20pm
I touched up the areas that needed  more work.  If you look at the previous post of the large cutout at the lower right hand corner, you can just barely see a small cut.  I tackled it here. 

Although too tiny to be seen through pictures, there are (were) several itsy bitsy cracks and imperfections along the edges that warranted attention. 

Getting closer....  and this is the underside of the fuselage! 

I gave the wingtips the same treatments. 

Neal,

This is a true definition of dedication of giving into OCD and risking the burnout.  I'll get it done one of them days.....

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on May 29th, 2019 at 8:21pm
I find that if I'm not too careful I get carried away with the details.  Of course you're going for way beyond the details I ever try to duplicate in my models.  Looking good Skye!!!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on May 31st, 2019 at 7:54am
This is what is happening to me. I spent almost a month at my drawing board developing ways to get my model to be the best I could do. In my past life as an aerospace designer we called it analysis paralysis. I think today we call it OCD. Nevertheless, we will have some nice models.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by heywooood on Jun 15th, 2019 at 12:23am
the endless struggle of model building...what am I willing to accept or like the horrible Kenny Rogers song says "you gotta know when to hold 'em..know when to fold 'em - know when to walk away, and know when to run"

I hit that point a dozen times on the P40 project alone...

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 24th, 2019 at 4:12pm
Well gentlemen, I'm still going for the Mustang in all its glory and details.  There are some days where I just sit and stare at the table and wonder if I'm going too far......

At least the belly scoop and underside of the fuselage has been finished to this point where the aluminum foil (Flite Metal) should be good to go.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 24th, 2019 at 4:43pm
The Guillow's kit came with a plastic inlet for the belly scoop.  The plastic was molded such that I could just use a razor knife and cut away the thin plastic across the inlet.  At first, the cut was made following the plastic outlines, but I felt it left too much "lip" and needed to be thinned down. 

So I used the razor knife again and thinned it to a more realistic outline.

Next, I used a small rat tail file to help smooth out any irregularities along the corners of the inlet.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 24th, 2019 at 4:49pm
I then painted the balsa former for the belly scoop black to help hide the wood when viewing through the inlet.  However, looking closely I could still see the wood.

So, I cut out some black paper.  It was then matched to the balsa former for final shape and glued it to the face of the belly former to help conceal the wood.  Looks better now.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 24th, 2019 at 4:52pm
The front cowl got the same treatment using black paper to help conceal the balsa wood former.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 24th, 2019 at 4:57pm
Next, I used a rattle can of silver spray paint and painted the inside of the belly inlet.  I felt it would look odd, if the outside was covered with either aluminum foil or paint but the inside would still have that white color of plastic.

Although the pictures show the interior of the inlet to be black, its really silver.  It's the black paper that is being reflected.  I also applied the silver paint to the exterior as well.  I'm not sure if I can bend or shape the foil around such small compound curves along the inlet, so I thought I'd play it safe and spray paint it.

The silver spray paint also revealed some rough edges along the top lip and the sides, so I took to sanding them off.

The plastic inlet and the wood belly scoop will both be blended in with Spackling Compound for a smooth finish.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jun 24th, 2019 at 5:01pm
Looking good...you can call it a separate panel if it doesn't match perfectly.  Lots of panels on bare metal aircraft unless they've been polished.  I noted one Reno Racer said he finally painted his modified P-51 silver because he couldn't find enough kids that were willing to polish it any more! ;D ;) 8-)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by heywooood on Jun 24th, 2019 at 6:18pm
I agree - and I think you have the intake opening just right.


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jun 26th, 2019 at 8:34am
Agree with Heywooood, the opening and thew workmanship is terrific. You have inspired me to s[end a bit more time on the Marcoux Bromberg. Great work and looking forward to more.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 27th, 2019 at 9:27pm
A big "Thank You" guys for all your marvelous inputs.  As luck would have it, I also submitted my build to WW2aircraft.net.  An incredible group of dedicated people who possess an amazing repository of information on all things during the Second War.  They were kind enough to point out my intake was a " bit too rounded" and that the real aircraft inlets had more of a thin rectangular shape.

This is the group of guys whom I turned to for extreme detailed information and boy, did they deliver.

Sooo, it was back to the building board.....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jun 27th, 2019 at 9:52pm
As I mentioned at the beginning of my build, I wanted to minimize as much as possible any hard work such as sanding.  Well, as luck would have it, I ended up sanding just as much, if not more, on this model as on all of my previous models. 

Unlike Wareagleed, I decided in the interest of expediency (read that, lazy) I decided to approach the inlet problem from a different tack.  Instead of using thin building blocks of balsa to form an inlet, I decided to experiment a bit from a different standpoint and see if my ideas might be worth merit.  As we shall see in the end, my inlet was no where near the level of good quality as Ware's but it's the best of compromises.

I used photos of the real aircraft,  scale drawings, the model plans and the fuselage of the model for comparison and seeing what could be done.

To begin:  I was already at a distinct disadvantage from the standpoint that the entire air scoop on the real Mustang was really very flat and very thin.  The Guillow's kit was equally very rounded and very fat.

The two pictures here really show the differences between the two. 




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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 9th, 2019 at 12:28am
Well, starting back to redefining the slim profile of the belly scoop, I began with sanding down the belly scoop itself as much as possible right down to the exposed wood.  This was about as flat as possible without going through the wood. 

Next, I cut up pieces of scrap balsa to laminate the same thickness of the plastic inlet scoop.

From there, I started the process of sanding down the laminations of wood to fit the inlet.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jul 9th, 2019 at 11:51am
I find that there is always more sanding than I thought there would be in every project.  Just seems to happen that way.  This is looking great Gary!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 9th, 2019 at 3:35pm
Sky9,

Thank you so much for those words of encouragement.  You're absolutely correct that there's always going to be more sanding than either needed, wanted, necessary, desired, and more.....   ;D

Just when I figured out a way to avoid it, somehow sanding has a way of working itself into my modeling build. 

I'm actually ahead of this belly scoop project and starting the dreaded interior.  But the posts will have to wait until I catch up..... 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 9th, 2019 at 5:52pm
Carefully measured the balsa lamination.  Evened up to the plastic inlet.  Then double checked the small inlet with another balsa block.  I put them together to get a good "feel" for what I was shooting for.  Then as a "coup de grace" I added a small strip of plastic to wrap around the small balsa block to serve as the lip to the inlet.

The results....???
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 9th, 2019 at 6:04pm
After adding copious amounts of Spackling Compound, the results was one big mess....

The inlet was too wide in vertical to compensate for the roundness of the former on the fuselage.

Just as importantly, I couldn't achieve the lower recessed detail, as seen in profile.

Oy Vey!
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 9th, 2019 at 6:13pm
Sooo, as a last resort and as luck would have it, a more successful one, was to melt the plastic inlet to shape.

Since I live in a small apartment, having access to a large heat source was not in the cards.  Outdoor barbecues are very strict within this complex.  I take it that something really bad must have happened long before I moved in for these restrictions to be implemented.

Forget about using the oven as our kitchen is small enough as it is and I didn't want any additional risks.  All too often I've discovered that plastic has a unique way of going from melting to burning without warning. 

The next best thing, and my last option, was using a hair dryer.    That being said, I went back to the gardener's shed with my own hair dryer (believe it or not, I still have enough hair left over on my head to use it) and proceeded to "rearrange" the inlet.  This is where sometimes we all wish we had a third arm.

The next posts will show the pictures of the inlet as I went through the various stages of slowly melting and rearranging the inlet as best as I could.  Some of the photos will obviously be staged for me to take the picture.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:58am
The first photo is staged to show what I was trying to do with the hair dryer.  I used a small needle nose pliers to crimp the inlet from a semi-circular shape to more of an oblong outline.  I tried to see if it was possible for me to square off the ends and thereby giving me a more rectangular shape, but this is where my third hand would have come in(pun intended) handy.

It left a lot to be desired and needed some compound to help smooth out the inlet shape.  At least it was no longer a rounded shape.

So the long process of added compound followed by (yep) sanding begins.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 10th, 2019 at 12:01pm
After a lot of trials and back and forth, sanding, adding more compounds, sanding more, I finally arrived at what I consider the best of compromise.  Not perfect by any means, but at least not as inaccurate as the original either.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jul 10th, 2019 at 12:11pm
Skyediamonds...you're more of a trooper than me.  I'd have chucked the molded part and uses a balsa block or laminated balsa to get the shape I was looking for.  Your drive for perfection or as close as you can achieve is commendable!!! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:50pm
Sky9: 

Thank you sir.  Sometimes I felt like I had gone off into the deep end. 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:57pm
At least I changed the overall appearance of the inlet and belly scoop to the extent that it's more closely resembles that of the full sized article.

The inlet has not been permanently glued into place.  As of this writing, I'm holding off until the last minute when everything comes together and the Flite Metal foil can be applied around the mouth.  I'm thinking out loud here that I would probably need access to both the interior as well as the front of the inlet in order to achieve what I'm thinking might be the impossible.

Despite all of the accolades and video demonstrations on YouTube and other sources, I've yet to see someone apply the foil around extremely tight complex curves such as a mouth of an inlet or even around a large cowl.  So, we'll see. 

At the least, the inlet will have silver paint..... :o

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 10th, 2019 at 9:17pm
Finally moving forward:

I'm now at the stage of the dreaded cockpit interior.  Normally, I would look forward to this portion of the build as it gives me a chance to explore my creativity and skills.  However, upon looking at the vast array of doodads, instruments, their dials and bezels, all those levers, switches, and lots of paraphernalia beyond description, let alone trying to replicate in model form; at a scale for which there are little or no aftermarket items to simply attach or glue, but to have to fabricate from scratch; and all crammed into the half the space of the interior with the other half occupied by the seat and radio gear, well, can be quite daunting.

I'm planning that this stage will help complete most of the various components of the model which will allow me to proceed with the application of foil and the major assemblies.

So, as they say: "On with the show."

As always, everything starts with research and planning.  This picture pretty much illustrates why replicating a cockpit with this level of detail can be overwhelming. 

Adding to the confusion and complexity, many of the cockpits vary from one to another, many of the drawings and photos can also be inaccurate and depict the cockpit that shows many of the details out of proportion.  For example, in the photo below, the illustration on the left side shows one of the forward trim wheels to be mounted on the backside of the rounded panel.  It's in fact supposed to be nearly flat on top of the panel with just a slight upward cant towards the pilot. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 21st, 2019 at 9:46pm
Good evening everyone,

Just to show that things can really be confusing, I mentioned in my last post that the illustration of the cockpit was in error.  The fact is I was in error.  The graphic image of the cockpit interior was accurate for a "C" variant of the Mustang series.  I just happened to be watching a video on YouTube of Kermit Week's selfie on flying his really cool P-51C and as he climbed inside the cockpit and started buckling down the belts, that's when I noticed the left side panel and the configuration of the trim controls. 

This was verified later by more information as I continued my research during the build, which is where I'm about to start now.  So, without further ado, I'll proceed with the cockpit interior.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 21st, 2019 at 10:09pm
As with just about everything else, I've done "a little bit of homework" and came up with more variations, photo, drawings, outlines and stuff than would be possible to post on this site.  Suffice to say I've just included a random sampling of the stuff that out there on the Internet and other aviation-related websites.  The last picture shows I made a lot of copies and had them sized to near the same scale as the model to help me get a good grasp of what I was getting myself into. 

Those computer graphics were really cool and they covered just about every detail of the "D" variant Mustang cockpit you could think of; from the left, right and front views to details of the stenciling, the works. 

If you compared those graphics to my flimsy drawings, there's really no comparison.  I admit my drawings were pitiful.   
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 21st, 2019 at 10:32pm
Among some of the many things I discovered during the research phase was how much detailing I can include and which detailing I would leave out.  One of the items were the rudder pedals.  When  laying the graphic copy over the fuselage to help me with my side elevation perspective, it showed that the pedals were located far too forward to the extent that I would have to cut away  more material from the fuselage that was pretty much cleaned out as it was.

As this picture shows, the rudder pedals were further forward than the foremost bulkhead in the cockpit.  I suppose I could cut away some of the lower potions, but I felt the fuselage would have to withstand some of the pressures that I would exert during the metal foiling stage, as well as the need for added strength of the fuselage for the wing attachment. 

I also felt that the pedals were far down enough within the cockpit that few people would bother to notice -other than us.  At least that's the theory.

   
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 21st, 2019 at 11:45pm
I tried to work out the "drop box" concept when doing the interior.  To tell you the truth, it would've really make my life a lot easier.   To their credit, Guillow's does a great job, but its all made out of thin printed cardboard that's folded up to fit inside the cavity.  They did a great job on many of their models, but the Mustang was left out.

To do this level of detailing, at least from my own perspective, necessitated a step-by-(slow) step of fabricating each major section of the interior along with creating and gluing all of the accessories together and build up from there.  Yes, this is in it for the long haul.  Sorry guys....

As with the S.E.5, I decided to start with the most difficult ( & obvious)  place to access and go upward from there.  This meant the floor.  I can leave out some of the more fragile items such as the control column and the pilot's seat.  I believe I mentioned this before, but the pilot's seat actually rises above the canopy rails.  The other items were the radios stacked behind the pilot's seat and the throttle quadrant.

In the interest of expediency, and for practical reasons of their locations, I purchase some instruments from J-Tec based upon what I've seen from our fellow members on this site.  J-Tec does a marvelous job of rendering their instruments in various sizes and in bright easy-to-see colors and I give them kudos for their efforts.  I will be making some of my own instruments specifically geared to this Mustang and will mix them in with the J-Tec. 

didn't take all of the pictures of step-by-step stages to get to this point of what you're about to see.  However, you can easily infer from how it was achieved from the pictures being presented here.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 21st, 2019 at 11:54pm
By the time I was finished with the floor mounted fuel gauges, I kind of messed up the right side metal foot runner.  So I peeled it off and made up a new one.  I think it looks better.

Incidentally, the runner were made from the Flite Metal foil that I hope to use for covering the rest of the exterior of the model.

As you can see just from the runners, the foil is not a forgiving medium, so it'll be a challenge that I'll be facing when the time comes.  Hooo boy, the things I get myself into....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 21st, 2019 at 11:58pm
I then installed the floor into the cockpit area and thus, begins another chapter in the interior which will be the left side.

This was an important start as everything else will be fabricated around the floor and the detailing that went with it.  It was both an educated guess and a crap shot for the location of the runners and especially the fuel gauges.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 22nd, 2019 at 12:43am
Using the left side sources, I replicated them onto thin plastic sheeting to be cut out to fit inside the cockpit. 

From there, it was just an arbitrarily judgment call to start with the main left side panel containing the trim wheel controls.  I figured it would provide a large reference source for the other accessories to be fabricated and added as I went along.

All of these accessories will be replicated purely by eyeballing and seeing it to appear 'to be just right" in proportion to everything else.  Because Guillow's kit wasn't originally designed for scale at this level, I had to compromise what would look good with reference to one another. 

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jul 22nd, 2019 at 12:41pm
Hi Gary - Things are really moving along well for you and glad to see the progress. We're very lucky that Jtec has the gauge faces, creating them is such a pain, as you know from the SE5. I've taken on way too much as far as builds goes, don't seem to know how to limit myself but it is all fun. I've sent you three emails but nothing seems to be leaving my tablet and have it in professional hands and will catch up soon.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by heywooood on Jul 22nd, 2019 at 4:22pm
Outstanding effort on this Mustang cockpit and interior elements!! 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 22nd, 2019 at 10:26pm
heywoood, and NB, thanks guys for your support.  Really helps to keep me going.  You're the best.

Don't stop on your project.  I know exactly what you mean by not knowing when to stop and move onto the next item.  Just seems to keep going on and on like that Energizer Bunny.

Despite the great instrument dials from J-Tec, I'll probably add a few of my own custom ones specifically geared to BBD.  My daughter has a full sized cockpit poster of BBD hanging on the wall to the entrance of her home.  You couldn't miss it.  So, I took about a half dozen pictures of this poster, focusing on the instruments and such.  I'll probably make the altimeter exactly as the one on the poster right down to the altitude reading.....  OCD going on overdrive.... ::)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 23rd, 2019 at 9:31pm
Gentlemen,

Good evening to one and all.  I trust that this post finds all in good spirits and in good health. 

I left off with the focus on the main portion of the left side and that was the large panel housing.  On top of it, has the trim wheels for the ailerons and rudder, and along the sides had the trim wheel for the elevator and the salvo of bombs. 

I started off with a block of 1/8" thick balsa and went from there and simply cut and sanded it to fit within the scale drawing that was made from all of the reference materials.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 23rd, 2019 at 9:38pm
I've found over the years that to achieve crisp corners and flat surfaces, use of plastic sheeting is the way to go.  The following photos really show off how the main housing came together.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 23rd, 2019 at 9:47pm
Looks easy, doesn't it?  It really is that easy.... honest. 

However, in my excitement, it's not without its perils.  I'll get to that in just a few posts from now.   Suffice to say, it's the ease of this method of fabrication that can lull one into a false sense of security and become hasty.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 23rd, 2019 at 10:13pm
Okay guys,

I got ahead of myself and skipped some of the steps I took to get to this point of detailing the main panel and some of the internal vertical and cross support members.

To get the crisp folds, one must carefully score the plastic sheet just enough to bend it along the score line.   The plastic sheets I used are extremely thin. 

From there, I used a dull needle and small hammer to gently tap the rivets from the backside to have them protrude out in front for the small curved access panels.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 23rd, 2019 at 10:24pm
Alrighty,

Now we're back on pace.  Sorry about that.

From comparing the left side panel of the full sized Mustang to the left side wall that I just placed inside the fuselage for viewing, I'd say I'm doing a fairly decent job of replicating the real deal.

Actually, I'm seeing if the side panel clears the floor fuel gauges.  On the real aircraft, they come very close. 

I can almost hear your thoughts on how I'm going to tackle the box with the half circle cutout, that little "baggy"  and the curved vertical member. 


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 23rd, 2019 at 10:32pm
In these series of pictures, I'm fabricating both the vertical supports and the box.  I am first sizing the vertical supports  to see how much clearance I need between the two horizontal areas.  From there I can also determine the size of the box.

The last picture shows the plastic sheeting in the punch and die set for the cutout of the half circle to the box.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 23rd, 2019 at 10:38pm
I believe the following pictures are pretty much self-explanatory.  No doubt you have that "Ahh haaa" moment on how the half circle was made.  I have to admit that I spent quite a  lot of time trying to figure that one out.  Sometimes the most simplest of things can be so complicated....  :P
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jul 23rd, 2019 at 11:26pm
Isn't it always the case...we tend to make it more difficult than it needs to be!  Love your solution.  This is coming along nicely Skyediamonds...keep up the great work!
Sky9pilot

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 24th, 2019 at 10:06am
Thank you Sky9.  It's greatly appreciated. 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by heywooood on Jul 24th, 2019 at 3:57pm
This is SO inspiring!!

I went very light on my P-40 interior..not because I wanted to necessarily - but because I simply cannot do this with my current skill set.

This is a clinic on how to - and it is priceless

Thank you for sharing your work flow and techniques here, SkyBoss

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 25th, 2019 at 11:33pm
Heywoood,

Thank you for your reply and to know that I'm truly inspiring people with my posts.  It's gratifying in itself just to know that.


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 26th, 2019 at 12:59am
During the progress of fabricating the left side wall I kept debating with myself what would suffice for trim wheels on top of the main panel, when I had to remove the cap to Krazy Glue and that's when a light bulb came on. Its got small ridges around the circumference just like the full sized trim wheels and it was about the size I needed.

So, without further ado, I simply cut off the remaining end and Voila' a trim wheel. 

Amazing what one finds laying about the house and what one's imagination will do.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 26th, 2019 at 1:03am
I'm constantly comparing what I've accomplished on my left side wall with the full sized article and so far, I believe I'm coming along replicating it nicely.....  :)

I'll admit that the vertical supports to the box appear to be a bit on the thick side.  Perhaps I should rebuild the whole left wall?
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Jul 26th, 2019 at 7:21am

Quote:
Perhaps I should rebuild the whole left wall?

I would say no to that. After all the effort you put into this and when it is buried into what is going to be a myriad of other things, and after all is said and done, may not be that visible. There will be enough other goodies to look at that nobody will give it a thought.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by heywooood on Jul 26th, 2019 at 8:09am
Agree with Mike,
Remember the big picture. Once the sidewall is complete the eye will see a sidewall that is true to the Mustang.
Once the cockpit is complete the eye will see an amazing feat of scale modeling. And once the entire model is complete the eye will be far and away too busy to see a fraction of a millimeter of difference between the width of some support struts on your currently unfinished sidewall panel and that of an original that they have never seen or at best only glanced at once..
We all seem to struggle with this - the decision point on what we can and cannot accept in our own handiwork. In the end I try to limit myself to a maximum of three reworks per project. Then I ask myself - does this ‘error’ or ‘problem’ draw the eye to a standstill?
If the wing dihedral is off, if the LG is uneven, if the tail isn’t square...these stop the eye and must be reworked.
For the rest of it, each builder ultimately decides where the lines are drawn.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jul 26th, 2019 at 1:59pm
Ditto to what Mike and Heywood said!!! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 27th, 2019 at 1:10am
Thank you one and all for your collective inputs.  Means a lo and you're correct.  Some times its the old adage of "Forest for the Trees" syndrome that we so often miss.



Gary (Skye)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 30th, 2019 at 11:50pm
Well guys, Heyoood just finished his gorgeous Stearman and here I am still dragging on and on with the Mustang.  Must be something to be said.  Age? OCD? Maybe a bit of both?

Anyway, just to jump ahead of myself when I suggested I might possibly rebuild another left side wall, as the picture will show, it came awfully close to reality.  Thanks to you guys, I listened and decided to just put the extra stuff into a box for one of those "jes' in case" emergencies. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 31st, 2019 at 12:10am
Now you guys might be wondering what's all that green highlight surrounding the side attachment panels.  Well, I decided to give it a little bit of a pin wash to help those panels "pop out" as they nearly blended into the main support stand.

Why the green and not the usual burn umber or dark oil, or black?  As previous postings way back then will show, I had a lot of trouble with pin washing and decided to act on the conservative side and use green.  I know it sounds silly and might even look sillier but at least I had some limited success. 

Full disclosure:  My favorite color is green .....  ::) 

I first shot a clear coat of Rustoleum Clear over the whole thing to help give it a smoother surface to help with the capillary action of the wash.  Sorry I didn't take a picture of this. 

I mixed a high diluted solution of about 90% water and (maybe) 10% water color.  I had at least the gloss coat of green, combined with the clear coat really helped with the capillary action of the paint/water wash. 

I tried to cover all of the details.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jul 31st, 2019 at 12:24am
My main concern was the mottled surface from the reaction of the paint acting as its own thinner from the  previous disaster.  A close look at the second picture shows the textured surface from the paint.  My thoughts were that this textured surface would only serve to highlight the mottled look with hundreds of tiny pockets of green spots scattered all over the surface.  As luck would have it, my fears were groundless (fortunately). 

I was pleasantly surprised to see how much control I had over the wash and the amount I wished to leave on the surface or to remove.  I used only the dried cotton swabs and if I removed too much of the wash, it was just a matter of adding just a touch more with the brush ready standing by. 

Overall, at this stage, I'd have to say was a good learning experience with not adding the second coat too soon, listening to my fellow member's sound advice (I actually paid attention, so please don't stop with your inputs), and the final outcome.   

I also recall reading several publications that subtlety was the key in detailing, whether it's pin washing or giving the  model a worn out weathered look.  So, I took this sage advice to heart and not added too much wash but enough to accomplish my original objective.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 25th, 2019 at 9:26pm
Good evening gentlemen,

I'm jumping ahead of myself and showing the progress of the left side wall so far.  After I've given it a pin wash of green to help pop out some of the panels, the next item on the agenda would be the bag containing the flare pistol.

I'm also enclosing the same left side wall picture of the real Mustang for comparison.

Full disclosure:  I am about to get a little bit more crazy in the detail-orientation department. 


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:07pm
The photos are pretty much self-explanatory. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:15pm
I used a scarf that was found laying around the place.  The scarf has a light fabric material that wouldn't come off like a burlap bag in scale.  I was lucky that it came with a splinter scheme in the brown and tan colors.  I just picked out the color that came reasonably close to the one on the full sized Mustang.  I supposed I could paint it a color that might be more closer to the tone of brown/tan, but at this small scale, I was concerned that the paint might cover up some of the fabric weave.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:32pm
The zipper came from another unlikely source.  It turned out to be one of my wife's tie-wraps from one of her (many) shopping sprees in the clothing department.   Best of all, it already came in the brass metallic colors that I needed.  Amazing how helpful she is...  ::)
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:37pm
From there, it was just a matter of added some side "leather" borders to the bag.  In this case, I cut up a thin strip of glossy paper and tapered the ends to fit the top portion of the bag.  This  photo shows the strips way over sized for the scale, but only to show for photographic purposes.  The finished bag can be seen in the background.

Next, I used a rattle can of spray paint & painted the strips a dark brown. 

When the painted strips were dry, they were cut to size and glued onto the bag.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:46pm
The small handle to the zipper was made from small wire.  Even at the smallest size, the wire was too big.  So, I stripped off the insulation and it came fairly close to the size I had in mind.

I knew the gardener's shed would come in handy.  In this case, he just happens to have a vise which proved to be my "third hand" in holding the large "T" pin in place while I wrap the small wire around.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:52pm
Next, I compared the size of my small handle to the bag and cut the twisted wire to size.

Then the wire was painted a brass color.  The photo shows it in copper.  I later changed my mind and switched to brass as it was a closer match to the zipper.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Aug 26th, 2019 at 3:15pm
Gary,
You're out doing yourself here!  Amazing stuff in your detailing!!!  I like it!!!
Tom

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 26th, 2019 at 9:05pm
Tom,

Thank you for  those compliments.  They're much appreciated.  However, my detailing gets worst.... in a good way. Well, sort of.  Kind of.  I think..... ;)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Aug 27th, 2019 at 7:48am
More great work and this i going to be another great model.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Aug 28th, 2019 at 7:55pm
Mike,

Thank you!  Need those words of encouragement. 

Gary

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Oct 5th, 2019 at 3:47pm
Just a short note to say I apologize for the lack of postings.  There has been a passing of one of our family members and it's been a mess.  I trust that I'll be getting back soon to post more of my  builds on the Mustang.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Oct 5th, 2019 at 6:00pm
Sorry to hear of your loss.  Thinking of you!!!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by pb_guy on Oct 5th, 2019 at 11:22pm
Sorry to hear that you are going through this grieving process Gary. Many of us have made this journey, and I can say from personal experience that you will be in the grieving process for about two years. Take as much time away from building and participating as you need. Our sympathies for your loss. I know it hurts a lot.
ian

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by heywooood on Oct 7th, 2019 at 6:32am
Sorry to hear of your loss, Gary.
I send my deepest condolences to you and your family.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Nov 30th, 2019 at 9:44pm
Gentlemen:

I sincerely thank each and everyone of you for your support and understanding.  It's been a long road to recovery and it's still a mess.  However, there's a light shining at the end of a long tunnel and praying for health and success. 

I answered ibscrooge's build thread on his P-38 so I must be getting better.  In this build thread on the Mustang, I'm going to start bouncing around from cockpit to the wings, to the tail feathers and back.  It's just one of those things where I can't seem to find any consistency.  I work on a portion of the model, then a week (or month) goes by and I find myself working on something else.  So I am hoping you'll bear with me.  Must be my OCD or something..... ;)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Nov 30th, 2019 at 10:25pm
Gary,
Great to hear from you again.  I look forward to the progress.  You can never get too many P-51's! :D ;) 8-)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 3rd, 2019 at 9:17pm
Thank you sir!  I'll start resuming shortly.  Just taking one step at a time.  I've done lots of work and it seems nothing is done,,... but that's detailing. 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 6th, 2019 at 3:58pm
Well gentlemen,

I've had to review all 21 previous pages to figure out where I left off and where I need to begin.  Suffice to say, I've covered a lot of grounds.

I'm still working out the kinks on the instruments for the cockpit.  I've had some mixed success and trying to finalize some of the highlights. 

So, that being said, I thought it best to continue on with the detailing of the wheel wells.  My last post on this subject was back on page 12, starting with post # 173.  So, I'll briefly review just this narrow topic before moving on. 

One of my objectives was to increase the depth of the airfoil to the wings.  More specifically, to the undersides.   The original Guillow's wing is very flat bottomed, as it was designed for rubber power.  This was covered in my previous postings (Page 7 Reply # 100) as it looked out of place with a scale Mustang with a "Clark Y" airfoil, when it's supposed to be laminar.  I took up Mike's advice and added some extra material to the undersides of the ribs to give the wing some "roundness' and have it resemble more closely to a laminar airfoi.

However, as can be seen in this picture, the added thickness brought on another challenge.  The original wing spar is now too narrow in depth between the top and bottom skins.  As seen in this photo ( I'm holding the wing upside down with the underside on top), the added materials have "raised" the bottom skin above the spar.  Soooo..... my next step was to address this issue.

Ever notice how one modification to the model, leads to other steps that must be taken in order to compensate for the original mod?
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 6th, 2019 at 4:28pm
When reviewing the wheel wells on both plastic models & full sized aircraft, I also noticed that the wing spar is located right behind the wheel well.  In fact, some areas near the rear straight-edged portion of wheel well, the spar actually slightly sticks out.

This means two steps.  I will have to increase the depth of the spar itself and also bring it closer to the edges of the wheel well outlines.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Dec 6th, 2019 at 4:32pm
If the rest of the wing will be closed off with wing skin...why not just built the wheel well to the needed deminsions and close up the wing?  I know for a purist that may sound like sacriledge! :-[ :-X :'(

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 6th, 2019 at 5:28pm
The steps I took were pretty easy.  The original spar wasn't too far back, so I only needed a strip of balsa that would be thick enough to bring the "face" of the wing spar forward nearer  to the wheel well outline.  This turned out to be a strip of balsa about 1/8" thick.

The first two pictures shows  the original spar that's just within sight of the wheel well outline.  I added some extra balsa at the end to help give it some added strength for the extra length of the new 1/8" balsa strip that was going to be added to the spar. 

The third photo shows the 1/8" thick balsa strip that will be laminated to the original spar.  As can be seen, it's depth is wider to account for the upper and lower wing skins.  It is also thck enough to move the "face" of the wing spar closer to the wheel well outlines.

Now it's the time to dress up the "face" of the spar that will be seen by viewers.  As with my previous building style, I try to avoid the hassles sanding, priming & finishing as much as possible and let the thin sheets of either plastic or thick glossy paper to do the work for me.  In this case, it's turned out to be a combination of both.  It's glossy paper that was laminated between two ultra thin sheets of plastic,  I got the sheets from a local store that was handing them out as a promotional gimic.  I just asked for as many as they could spare.  Maybe I came off like an overly enthusiastic prospective customer?
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 6th, 2019 at 10:24pm
Using a ruler and dull T-pin on the backside, I managred to produce domed rivets onto the plastic/paper wing spar.  I tried to replicate the patterns of rivets seen on full scale Mustangs.

I also added some tiny strips of plastic to simulate the brackets on the spar.

The rest of the pictures should be self-explanatory, but there was a little surprise waiting for me when I was finished with the spar.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 6th, 2019 at 11:43pm
Remember all those ribs I carefully measured, cut and trial fitted?  Well, thanks to the added thickness of the "new" spar and it's decorated facing, I had to resize all of the ribs.... again. ..  :P

These photos are of the ribs prior to the new wing spar.  It's sort of like a "before" shot.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 7th, 2019 at 1:16am
Everything has its start.

I overlaid the underside surface on top of the rib to determine the exact marks where I can start my cutouts.  From what I could see from the documentations the ribs supported the underside skins all around the wheel well outlines.

After determining the marks for the ribs and outlines, I felt that the punch & die used to punch out the holes should be done first, before the cutting, while there is still a lot of material left on the rib to act as additional support.  The picture shows both the relatively small punch & die set with my hands as scale, as well as practicing on a scrap rib first. 

From there, the cutting begins.

These ribs had holes.  Both for proviing a means to act as a de facto conduit for the wiring and plumbing and the hyraulic lines.  It was on a whim that I managed to obtain a tiny set of punch & die from MicroMark.  As the last pictures show, that set is really small!
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 7th, 2019 at 1:32am
The cutting begins.  I knew that the thin plastic would not be easily seen when viewed and I could see from the photos of the real aircraft that the ribs had a form of cap strip laid around the  inside of the cut out.

On top of everything else, the cap strips would definitely give the ribs some added dimentions as well as some eye-candy.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Dec 7th, 2019 at 8:18am
Hi Gary - I'm on the fly this morning but need to pass along a web site I was told about in our modelling club last Wednesday and is for rivets.
Check here: http://umm-usa.com/onlinestore/index.php?cPath=21_22
Read down the right hand column for "Rosie The Riveter" tool. I'm sure you will find them too small for your needs but the pounce wheels out there today are too coarse (point to point distance too great) but the larger of these tools on this web site can easily be modified to give you a pretty close pitch by eliminating alternate teeth. Anyway, all is looking really good and glad to see you are back. I'll answer your email tomorrow when I can sit and talk.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 7th, 2019 at 12:14pm
Sky9 - not sure what you mean by building the wheel well detail and closing up the wing.  Are you suggesting I do a "drop box" method? 

NB:

I looked up your link and believe it or not I already ordered (& received" a BT-902 Rivet Master.  This was from watching another modeler on a different site perform his version of flush rivets.  If you thought I was OCD, you should visit Britmodeller.com.  This guy takes modeling to another level much higher than I.

I thank you both for your suggestions and observations.  Please keep 'em coming.  Always could use feedback.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 7th, 2019 at 12:27pm
Next, I cut the ends of the cap strips off.

Then I give it a quick shot of my version of zinc chronate out of a rattle can from Wal Mart that approximates the color and tone.

Looking at the rib after its been painted.  Not bad, eh?  I'll do better with the cap strips.  I'll pre-roll the strips over a pen or some dowel to get the kinks worked out.  At this scale, I doubt people would notice anyway, but still worth an effort to get it right.  ..... ;)

Then I trial placed it within the wheel well.  Looks nice and clean and the cuts over the interior stringers are tight, not the pyramidical cuts as the original proof-of-concept ribs..
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 7th, 2019 at 12:33pm
The next rib has already been cut, including the slots for the stringers.  In addition to marking the area where to cut out the material following the wheel well outline, I'm now eyeballing & marking where the hole should go to keep the electrical lines that will snake through, reasonably straight.  You can just notice the hole from the first rib behind it.

I haven't removed the excess area yet.  I believe I'll be needing to punch another & larger, hole to account for the plumbing.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 14th, 2019 at 11:34pm
While all this hoopla was going on about the wheel well detailing, I decided to change tactics.  Originally, I was going to divide the undersides of the wings into three parts.  The two outer wing  panels connected to a center panel.  This made sense as I could continue detailing the interior of the wheel wells and fit much of the ribs under the surface of the wing at the wheel well outlines. 

Unfortunately, as the picture shows, the three-panel idea isn't all that cracked up to be.  So, I'm going to recut the wing sections down into just two panels: one right and one left.  Then join them at the center, just as on the full sized Mustang.

So, I'll continue my semi original course of detailing the wheel well interiors, using the wing panels you see here as patterns for me to size up the ribs and fit the plumbing; but upon completion, I'll cut out new panels.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 16th, 2019 at 12:37am
Before going on further, I reviewed  some research on the accessories that make up the interior of the wheel wells and lo and behold, there's more than one way to accessorize..... Oy Vey

The first picture was taken personally by me and the second photo was culled from Kermit's flying the (gorgeous)  blue-nosed Mustang.  Both planes are of the "D" variant and both photos are of the right wing wheel well of which is the subject of this posting.

The first picture depicts the wheel well with a "simplified" interior (if you could call it that), whereas the second picture shows the additional plumbing of about four lines running parallel down the length of the well.  They both also have common accessories such as electrical wiring with tie-wraps, uplocks, and hydraulic lines.

I even took several photos of plastic models and they too, offer variations of their wheel wells.  All of the "D" variant Mustang.  As you can see, the third picture shows the wheel well interiors almost bare of any detailed plumbing.  Of course with all due respect, it would have been up to the modeler to accessorize the interior rather than opting for just building the model straight out of the box.  The fourth picture shows a scratched 1/15th scale display model done by an incredibly detailed modeler, has far more detailed accessories.  However, none of the model's interiors match those of the full sized Mustangs shown in the first two photos.

So, with all that in mind and having no real solid information specifically to the Big Beautiful Doll, I decided to do a little bit of both.  Sort of a compromised mixed bag. I'm always open to suggestions and comments everyone. 


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 16th, 2019 at 5:46pm
Finally, here's a plastic insert of the wheel well interiors of the "D" Mustang from a kit manufacturer that seems to be determined to feature everything imaginable shoved into the wells.  With the possible exception of the uplocks (tiny squares in the centers), hydraulic actuators for the landing gear and the inner gear doors, it appears that nothing is in order and yet everything is there. 

I must admit that the plastic modeler has everything done for him/her.  The modeler only needs to paint the overall interiors.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Dec 16th, 2019 at 6:07pm
Even the plastic models have come a long ways from when I was doing them.  Would have saved alot of time!!!  Unless you are very familiar with the cubby holes on aircraft most of us would be impressed and not realize that something was out of place!!!  Not counting on field mods etc.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 16th, 2019 at 10:18pm
Sky9,

Thank you for your reply and you're correct about the advancements on plastic kits.  They also have supplementary items in photo-etched brass that are included in the more expensive kits.  Really impressive kits that have come a long ways.  Then there are additional resin aftermarket items and custom decals and the list goes on.

Full disclosure:

I often get my inspirations and ideas from reading (& buying) several plastic magazines.  Most of them are from the U.K. 




Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 17th, 2019 at 10:25pm
Good evening everyone,

If I may one more comment in response to Sky9's observation about some of us modelers being "..familiar with cubby holes..."  I believe that all of us to some degree will become somewhat more familiar with any particular aircraft we're modeling, if nothing else by paying attention to some of the details that make up that full sized aircraft.  I could list examples but I think everyone will agree on this point.  It's almost inevitable. 

Okay, off my soapbox.. Next post, please.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 17th, 2019 at 10:45pm
In my last reply # 315 on page 22, I decided to do a mixed bag of all of the wheel well interiors rolled into one, just to cover the bases, as we may say.

The reason why I pointed out some of the details of the interiors and plumbing was to illustrate my intentions to accessorize the interiors as close as (reasonably) as possible to that of BBD.   

To replicate the plumbing, I figured the use of wires of various diameters will fill bill.  Just unroll a strand and cut a length to fit the interior and go from there.  Boy, was I wrong.

Wires, no matter what I tried to do, just simply won't stay straight without some kind of tension.  The first photo shows my old strand of wire from my stash heap.  Hmmmm, maybe in very small lengths but not anything longer than say 1/2"  Too short for my wheel well interiors.

I even tried to unroll out the newer wire (red colored) by laying a foot length on a table and rolling it back and forth.  Nope.  There's always a small kink or a slight bend.  It was almost as if it was teasing me.  Yes, we detailed modelers get a bit crazy sometimes and think these materials are talking to us.

Then I tried stripping the wire off of its insulation.  Nada....  That last picture shows the bare wire after I tried to pull the ends straight and roll it back and forth.  It still retains some curves.

If nothing else, I tried this route.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 17th, 2019 at 11:01pm
Then a small light bulb went off and it was one of those Eureka moments of slapping my forehead and saying to myself, why didn't I think of this before?

Plastic tubing.  Evergreen produces various plastic tubings of different diameters for the modeling community for years.  I had previously bought dozens of small packages before the last remaining (true) hobby store closed its doors forever.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 21st, 2019 at 5:36pm
I also managed to purchase a separate set of plastic tubing that was only 0.030" in diameter.  Since Evergreen has a minimum order size and I thought it would be a good idea to make the most of it by ordering all types of tubing in various sizes as well as sheets with different textures and thicknesses.  I was thinking of future modeling projects and devoted about three days of reviewing all of the kits and plans within my stash.  Getting back to this tubing, this is really small, yet still holds itself straight and true, which is what I was looking for.

I only had to lay out a strip of rod across the length of the wheel well to get a good idea of how long of a piece I would need to cut.  I then bent that piece along the main rib area and giving it a bit of extra margin to boost. 

From here, I laid it next to another piece of tubing and I could simply start cutting up about four or five lengths of tubing. 

Then it was off to the "paint shop" in the form of using a pair of pliers with a rubber band at the handle end to help keep the needle  grip closed and weighing the opposite ends to keep them from swaying from the paint spray.  I used a rattle can of silver paint.  Then I allowed them to dry.  This photo was posed, which should explain why you don't see any weights holding down the opposite ends or the table having excess silver spray.  But from this picture, you can easily get the idea what would happen if the ends were not weighed down.

Thinking ahead, there was just a couple of more details I needed to attend before committing the tubings. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 21st, 2019 at 5:47pm
Each wheel well has its own set of actuators.  One for the main landing gear strut and the other for the inner wheel well door.  I decided however insignificant or ridiculous it might be, I decided to fabricate both of them on the chance that they might be seen as the model sits over a mirror on display.  The actuator to the main landing gear is really hidden within the wheel well and this is the one I decided to start before common sense would intervene and prevent me from going any further.....  ::)


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 21st, 2019 at 9:00pm
Using another sized plastic tubing from the package containing assorted tubings, I choose the one that best fit the approximate size of the actuator for the landing gear strut and cut it to about the length I felt would be about right (in another words, guessed everything and question nothing).

The black electrical tape was painted white and I cut a very thin strip.

The photos should be pretty much self-explanatory.  Suffice to say, I used this technique when fabricating the Aldis gun sight on my S.E.5 and it worked pretty well.  So I figured it would do good here on the actuators.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 21st, 2019 at 9:10pm
I'm jumping a little bit ahead of myself in posting this build of the actuator because I left out a couple of other steps I had to take before getting to the final installation within the wheel well. 

I used another, but smaller piece of plastic tubing to simulate the chromed strut that moves in and out of the actuator housing (piston).  I cut it to about the length that seemed to work and painted it silver.  I probably should've used a small slice of that highly polished film covering to wrap around this piston but since it's almost out of sight inside the wheel well, I figured a quick shot of silver paint should suffice. 

I'll definitely will use this Flite Metal to wrap around the piston of the inner gear door actuator since it will be more prominently seen.

The next steps will be the plumbing and electric wiring, but all that will have to wait until the left wing wheel well interior is completed as well as the additional actuators and stuff.

Whew, all this required a lot of thinking...and planning and adjusting.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 21st, 2019 at 9:27pm
Looking at the plumbing within the well, I also noticed that much of the pipes and conduits go through the wing ribs.  I initially thought of skipping this stage and simply glue the plumbing on the ceiling inside the well and also on the main wing spar.  But then again, that little ol' OCD kicked in and I said to myself "Self, it would look sooo cool if the plumbing went through the ribs just like on the full sized Mustang."

I decided to use the third photo as my primary source, only because of how the silver plumbing contrasted beautifully against the green chromate background and provides some eye-candy when looking at the wheel well interior through the reflection in the mirror.  Pure artistic choice.  No logic whatsoever.

Common sense-wise, if doing the interior of the wheel well, the second photo would've made more sense as it doesn't have as much "activity" as the last picture.  I was also taking into account of how much visual contrast would be needed to see the interior of the wheel well when looking at it through the reflection in the mirror.





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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 21st, 2019 at 9:56pm
First off, I noticed that area where the main landing gear strut will be located, it was just too green.  I felt it would look odd for the strut to suddenly appear out from nothing but green.  So a little bit of darkening was added here.

It really doesn't make much sense as the strut still appears out from nowhere, but at least it'll give the impression that the darkened background creates the illusion of the mechanics are too deep and hidden to be easily seen.

I didn't think that painting the whole background was necessary.  So I used a pen to denote the areas that would be seen through the rib and then brush-painted flat black.

If you compare this scene with the previous post where the actuator piston goes in to the last rib, it makes more visual sense.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Dec 21st, 2019 at 10:48pm
Amazing how a small touch like that can really change the looks of things! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 21st, 2019 at 11:01pm
While observing the interior wheel well and its plumbing, wiring and conduits, I noticed that much of it actually goes through the wing ribs as well as being bolted or fastened to the main spar.  At first, I thought of simply gluing the plumbing and electrical wires to the ceiling of the interior and back to the main spar.  But that little ol' OCD kicked in and said: "Wouldn't be sooo cool to have the plumbing go through the ribs just like the full sized Mustang?"  It would also add some dimension to the eye-candy as the plumbing would stick out more and for the astute observers, would really knock 'em down. 

I had already punched out some holes for the main conduits but was concerned that too many small holes might distort the fragile ribs.  As it turned out, I was wrong.

I went back to use the small punch-n-die set and used one of the smaller punches.  As the first photo shows, they can really get small and down to scale almost as if the punch was more like a pin.

The second picture shows the holes for the plumbing to pass through the ribs near the "ceiling" of the interior wheel well.   

I also took advantage of the punch set and punched in some "half-round" holes at the rear edges of the ribs to allow room for the plumbing to pass through on the main wing spar.  Looking closely, you can see the rear half-round holes for the cut outs to be made.

The last two pictures show me using an X-Acto blade and cutting out between the two half-rounds.  The last picture shows the cut out.  The picture doesn't do justice, but its really neat and tidy.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 21st, 2019 at 11:07pm
Skyper9,

Thank you, sir.  I'm hoping to achieve just that "change" you mentioned.  I won't know until the two wing panels are permanently glued together as the plumbing is dependent upon the center main rib that divides the wings under the fuselage. 

It's at this junction where the wheel is located is when we see all the plumbing start twisting every which way.  To be able to effectively match up the plumbing and the electrical conduits requires that everything be in its place and ready for me to "thread" the plumbing through the holes.  Or at least have them pre-inserted and have the excess ready for bending and twisting when the wings are joined.  I've been thinking alot on how to approach this.  Still not sure which course of action to take.



Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 22nd, 2019 at 8:58pm
Okay.  Let's put all of this together and see what happens starting with the finished rib in my hand as in the previous post.

Starting to look like a real honest-to-goodness wheel well interior.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 22nd, 2019 at 9:13pm
The Litmus test is when I start to run some (sample) plumbing through the ribs.  After all, it's what all the fuss is about and the extra work.

Wow.  Initially I thought this would be a piece of cake and the rest is downhill.  The small tubing just slid right through the holes and everything lined up.

Unfortunately, when I tried to bend the plastic tubes to hook up to the actuator, however easy and light they are, the ribs started to buckle and move.  Apparently, the thin ribs just glued free-standing to the interior wasn't strong enough to withstand the bending loads. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 22nd, 2019 at 9:21pm
As in many other aspects of this build, I had to make adjustments and in this case, reinforce the ribs.

The first picture is posed to show what I did to reinforce the ribs.  I would have to pre-paint the brackets before gluing them to the interior wall. 

The second picture shows the final results.  The paint did a great job of helping the brackets to blend in with the interior.  You really have to zoom up and look carefully, especially the first set nearest the wheel well, to see the brackets.   Whew...  now its back for another trial.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 22nd, 2019 at 9:33pm
I decided to temporarily place the underside wing skin over the wheel well to see how it all comes together.

The cut outs holding up the "plumbing" really shows up to good effect here.  The actuator is in good position.  I did not try bending the tubes as I realized that it's nearly impossible to gain access to the tubes even with needle nosed pliers and tweezers (let alone my hands) within the small confines of the interior and bend them to connect to the actuator.  I also felt any attempts would simply end up ripping the interior anyway.  The tubing will have to be pre-bent and installed with a "connector" in between. 

Looking almost directly straight down, the actuator disappears, as it should, just like on the full sized Mustang.  The plumbing really appears 3-D.  I'm glad I took the extra steps of punching out the small holes in the ribs instead of taking the easy way out and simply gluing the plumbing onto the interior ceiling and main wing spar.

Score one for OCD.....  ;D


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Dec 22nd, 2019 at 9:56pm
Looks great!!! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Dec 24th, 2019 at 8:34am
Gary - Your work is truly great and can't wait for the reveal. If the Wright Flyer was any indication of your work, there will be another terrific model for everybody to drool over.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Dec 24th, 2019 at 5:24pm
Tom and Mike,

Wow.  Thank you guys.  You really made my day with your comments.  It's greatly appreciated. 

Right now, I'll be working on the left wing which is similar to what's been accomplished here with the different plumbing and the added landing light. 

This shouldn't take too long as most of the trials and tribulations and studying of trying to figure out how all this was going to come together was done on the right wing. 

From there, I'll mate the two wing panels and start working on the center section which will include the actuators for the inner gear doors, mating of the main spars, and (trying to) figuring out how to finish off the ceiling of the interior with the accummators, gauges, more twisted plumbing, electrical wiring, and stuff.  When I get to that point, I'll keep everyone updated. 

Merry Christmas everyone.


.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 10th, 2020 at 10:55pm
Gentlemen,

I'm still working out the details on the interior of the wheel wells and haven't made much progress lately.  However, I'm always trying to think ahead so I can carefully plan for my next move.  At this point, I'm trying to figure out how to create the "lip" that surrounds the wheel well outline.  This "lip" allows the gear doors to slightly overlap and seal themselves in.

Any suggestions?  My covering will be Flite Metal which is the aluminum foil with a strong adhesive backing.  Once it touches the surface of anything, that's it.  It's stuck.  So I have to be really careful how to approach this method of creating this lip. 

Should I cut out a slightly smaller outline on a separate sheet of glossy paper or thin plastic sheet and carefully line it up with the outline of the underside surface?  How should I go about attaching the foil and making sure it follows the wheel well outline exactly as on the full sized aircraft?

As usual, my methods of scale modeling is always "outside the box" of easy ways of building.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Kaintuck on Jan 11th, 2020 at 5:56am
Gary..outstanding work!!!.....you have steady hands!....
You mentioned the skin following the outline....is it a skin that can be heated?...heat the edge then lay it on the wheel well?
Marc

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 12th, 2020 at 10:27pm
Marc,

Thank you for that wonderful compliment.   It's greatly appreciated.  I've been following your build of the Flea and you too, have done remarkable job!  Very well done, sir.  So your compliment is coming from a modeler who knows what to look for in workmanship is really valued.

The skin, is actually made out of a combination of glossy paper and (to be added later) a metal foil with an adhesive backing.  This foil is called by its trade name, Flite Metal.  There are (now) also several other aftermarkets out there producing this foil.  So it really can't be heat treated.  I'm shooting for the Mustang to have a natural highly polished metal finish.  So covering the frame with tissue is not going to be possible.  Which is why I infilled the fuselage.

In years past, modelers used chome-backed plumber's duct tape for the simulated metal finish on their models.  Whereas its still a good source of inexpensive (read that, cheap) material to be used to simulate that natural metal finish that no amount of silver, chrome, or any of the metallic paints can duplicate, it requires a deft hand on the modeler's part to pull it off.  It also has its limitations.  Chief among them not being flexible to take compound curves, comes in only two-inch wide strips (not good for wing covering), and bubbling up under heat.

I did a lot of research, using various materials and lots of trial and error to come up with what I think is a good product that simulates the look of natural metal.  You can read up on my trials in the beginning of this build thread of the Mustang.

Flite Metal has helped many experts win Top Gun, the Nationals, and even FAI competition in the static display portion of the contests.  An F-100 Super Sabre comes immediately to my mind as one of the top contenders.   Because many modelers fly their R/C's as well as having them on display or waiting their turn for the flying portion of the competition, their models end up sitting out in the burning sun for hours at a time. 

In order to meet the requirements of maintaining its integrity, it has an extremely strong adhesive backing that will stick almost like super glue at the slightest touch. The company says it can stand temps as high as 350 degrees without bubbling or coming apart.  So it behooves us modelers to exercise due diligence when handling this foil, as I was to find out several times.  The name of the company that sells it is called Scale Aero and can easily be Googled.  If you should have any more questions/comments, I'll be glad to answer.

Getting back to the wing, this "lip" requires another added layer to the underside surface of the outer wing "skin" (glossy paper and Flite Metal foil). 

Still banging my head on the wall trying to figure out how to have two separate layers following each other's curvy wheel well outlines with one being slightly smaller than the other to reveal the overlap.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 12th, 2020 at 10:35pm
Now working on the left wing wheel well interior.  For each rib I probably made about three or four to get the slot cutouts to match the stringers.  The curved cut outs are actually pretty smooth.  The inked outlines were pretty sketchy....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by MKelly on Jan 12th, 2020 at 10:37pm
Gary,

Can you cut a template to match the outer edge of the lip (basically a gear door template), tack it in place over the wheel well, then apply the Flite Metal, trim the Flite Metal along the edge of the template, then remove the template?  I've never played with that material, but that's how I would approach the problem if covering with foil tape.

Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 13th, 2020 at 4:01pm
Mike,
Sounds like a great idea!  I cut out the template of say the gear door from the plans.  Then over a table, spread the Flite Metal on the glossy thick paper that's laid on top of the table.  Place the template over the two, and cut the outline along the edges of the template, take the results to the wing and fit the whole thing over the wheel wells. Is this what you're saying?

I'd also have to be very careful to match up the whole covering to follow  the underside of the wing along the leading edges, trailing edges including the flaps and ailerons (which do not line up with each other as one would expect), and then to have the wheel well outline match up exactly over the wheel well.  Wow....

How do I create the exact outline of the inner lip to match the outer skin/foil?

I'm seeing a light at the end of a tunnel.....  :)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by MKelly on Jan 13th, 2020 at 9:26pm
I was thinking you'd put the gear door template on the model, get it aligned how you need it to be, then apply and trim the Flite Metal in place.  However, I've never used Flite Metal - do you have to pre-cut it off the model before application?

Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 15th, 2020 at 3:46pm
Mike, Gentlemen,

Here's an overall shot of the underside to the right wing.  As you can see, I've placed the template of the landing gear next to the wheel well.  The foil, called Flite Metal, will eventually be laid on top of the silver painted glossy paper. 

As previous postings will show, I've taken into account the location of the landing gear with respect to the wing.  It was from this position that I based my interior detailing such as the "ceiling," the wing ribs, and the plumbing that will be added to the overall interior wheel well.

What I'm now seeking is a possible solution to the "lip" that surrounds the outline of the wheel well on the wing itself, not the landing gear cover. The landing gear cover also has its own "lip" but will be dealt later.  Looking closely, at the second photo of the real Mustang looking straight up into the wheel well, one can see a small, almost indistinguishable lip that surrounds the outline of this wheel well.  This is what I'm trying to find a way to fabricate such a lip that is thin, yet durable, and follows the outline almost around the whole wheel well.

This "lip" has to be nearly exact in outline of the original wheel well yet somewhat larger such that it sticks out. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 15th, 2020 at 5:49pm
Skye...you mention "durable" for the small lip of the wheelwell bay opening.  Is there going to be some activity there??  I'm sure you could find a good silver or aluminum paint that could be brushed in place after all the work in the wheel well was finished. Back in the plastic modeling phase  I used to pack the wheel well with kleenix tissue so the paint couldn't spoil the detail work of the wheel well and then using a 00 paint brush paint the edge with the needed color.  If the Flitemetal won't wrap the edge for you, paint is an option and there are a ton of paint options to get the desired results.  Just a thought!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by MKelly on Jan 15th, 2020 at 7:07pm
Gary,

I was thinking the silver painted glossy paper would be cut to the inside size of the skin covering the wheel well area (in other words, the opening should be cut to include the lip as part of the paper).  Then the Flite Metal should be cut to the gear door dimensions (not including the lip).  This way the Flite Metal opening is bigger than the paper opening, and you get a representative thin edge where the skin meets the lip around the wheel well.

Mike
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 15th, 2020 at 9:49pm
Sky9, Mike, Gentlemen,

Sky9, you're correct in pointing out a question as to whether or not there was going to be any activity since I mentioned the word, "durable."   What I meant, was, if the model is being handled in any way such that the person's hands ended up holding the model from the undersides that exposes the wheel well outlines to weight or movement, that the outline (lip) wouldn't be deformed.  It is, after all, made out of nothing more than paper (thick, but still paper) and foil suspended over a large opening without any support directly underneath. 

Mike, excellent idea!  I'll go along with that.  Thank you! 

I'm assuming that the foil is already pre-cut to the smaller outline before peeling it off from the backing paper.  Is this what you mean?  From there, I would have to carefully line up the foil over the outline such that the inner and outer  outlines match perfectly.
That being the case, only need to know how to attach the foil in such a way that its strong adhesive backing doesn't prevent me from moving the foil around to its final place. 

Sort of like holding the backing paper to a decal over the general area desired, then sliding off the decal.  From there, gently moving the decal to its final place.  How can I perform this task if the foil (decal) has a strong adhesive backing such that the slightest touch makes it adhere to the surface.  The two outlines have to match perfectly.  Or is there another way?
 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 16th, 2020 at 10:36am
Skye,
Is there a way to use heavily waxed stringers or teflon strips placed over that which is to be covered so the covering can be oriented over the panel to be covered and when you're ready to apply the covering slide out the strips and attach the covering.  It's kinda like the counter top covering with contact cement we used to do and then once aligned pull out the strips of wood and press down the counter top.  Hope this makes sense.

Is there a way to reinforce the bay of the wheel well flush with the structure giving the opening the desired stiffness and rigidity to stand up to the handling it might experience?  I was thinking sheet acetate or thin mil plastic sheet just to support the opening edges. 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 19th, 2020 at 8:55pm
Sky9,

Thank you very much for your reply.  I must admit I had to reread your response several times to get the idea of what you meant.  Both possibilities carry merit.  Not too sure of the first one though.  The adhesive to the foil is extremely strong, I doubt it would be possible for even heavily waxed paper to be able to slip out from under the foil unscathed.

I like the second alternative.  I'll have to run it through my mind a couple of times while sitting in front of the model.  Sounds good.

In the meantime, I'm still trying to keep the momentum going.  Decided to keep super detailing of the wheel wells to help give me some motivation.


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 19th, 2020 at 11:04pm
Skye...I borrowed your picture and used it to describe what I was talking about. I assume that the thick paper you're using hasn't been attached to the wing structure/framework yet? So the thin plastic can be cut to shape and mounted in the wheel well without being destructive to the wing at this time.  It would remain completely out of sight and yet give the support you would need around the opening of the strut and strut cover.  The edge could stick out just enough to give the desired lip and could be painted/covered before being glued in place giving you the look you want.    Support and look all in one solution.
As I looked at the wing panel picture you posted it came to me that it could even be made to cover both wheel wells in one piece adding strength to the wing joint in a very weak area of the skin where the inner doors  would be adding additional weakness to the openings.  Just a thought.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 20th, 2020 at 12:26am
Ahhh, I get it now.  Great idea!  I'll start looking in my Evergreen stash for the appropriate thin plastic sheeting.  Excellent!  I'll see if it doesn't alter the outline too much. 

BTW, I was also thinking of the same thing of making the underside wing covering into one piece, or at least just two panels joined at the center rib.  I'm also thinking of tripling the center rib to give it added strength.

Thank you!!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 20th, 2020 at 12:40am
After looking at the pictures again I decided to fill in the whole sheet appearance to give a semi-accurate look at the sheet plastic.  My only concern is I don't really know what underlying structure looks like!  But you know what that is and how this could strengthen the joint of both wing panels!!!
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 21st, 2020 at 1:13am
Sky9, and gentlemen,

Your idea of supplementing the underlying covering with thin plastic sheeting to serve a dual purpose of: A) adding strength where it's needed and B) to provide the "lip" around the wheel well outline is absolutely brilliant.  I'm going to actively pursue this avenue.  I'm also going to employ this idea to the wing machine bay area as well.

Yes, your idea of adding the whole area around the root should definitely be sheeted rather than just around the wheel well outlines as previously discussed. 

It provides a very simple, yet logical approach to solving my issues on the openness of the wheel well areas which just by themselves have weakened the wings at their root in addition to the cosmetic issues.

Sky9 called to my attention that no one has any idea as to how the wings looked during my revised construction, I decided it best to scroll down "memory's lane" and call back some of my older pictures to help give a good idea of what they look like and where I'm taking all this.

I also thought it best to throw in the machine gun bay area detailing done on the right wing.  I counter-balanced with some added clay to the left wing.

As you can see from the first and last pictures, near the roots, just about everything is wide open to account for the room needed for the detailing of the wheel wells.  This is where the added plastic sheeting will come in handy.  I'm also considering reinforcing the top surface as well with plastic sheeting as added insurance for strength.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 21st, 2020 at 2:00am
Continuing with the wheel well detailing, I've decided to do a mixed bag of using two different full sized Mustang's wells as my source to replicate the interiors.  Logic?  None. Reasons?  Just pure artistic license since they both seem to give the best of what I'm seeking to bring out in a wheel well interior (of all things).

Soooo, without further ado. I've posted both of them here for reference.  Admittedly the first one is of the left wing as evidenced by the landing light, was decided purely because I was attracted by the parallel plumbing contrasted by the zinc chromate background.  It also featured the connectors to plumbing painted in blue that just reeks of restoration.  It also added some unusual color that is normally not considered on warbirds. Looking closely, one can also notice what appears to be copper-colored plumbing that is kinked in a zig zag fashion,  I decided to make it straight on my interior.

The second just had that artistic "buzz" that I liked with the hydraulic actuator finished off in silver with green clamps. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 21st, 2020 at 2:16am
I'm going to jump ahead of myself and show what my four hours have resulted.  Despite research over the Internet,  I have no idea exactly how the landing gear retraction actuators are plumbed, I'm just guessing as to how they might be from observing the landscaping machinery such as caterpillar equipment and backhoes.  I figured it couldn't be much different.

The kinked line under the razor will eventually be straightened out.  It's here just for photographic purposes.  Of course, the connectors were painted blue.....  ;D
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 21st, 2020 at 10:59am
Skye...this is like adding jewelery to the overall look of the bird!!!  Accessorizing I think they call it!!! ;D ;)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 22nd, 2020 at 11:09pm
Sky9,

Thank you, sir.  It's greatly appreciated.  I've already picked out the thin plastic sheet from my stash to use over the wheel well outlines to double as a "lip" and to reinforce the strength of the wing.  I thank you for that great suggestion.

Speaking of which, I've glued the two wing panels together earlier this evening.  From there, I plan on "accessorizing" the wheel wells until either it's complete, or I can't take it anymore....  :P

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 23rd, 2020 at 1:00am
The "How To" portion of my accessorizing the fabrication and installation of hydraulic lines to the landing gear was accomplished with small diameter plastic rods which were tiny compared to the size of my fingers and thumbs but (I think)  suitably sized to scale for the simulated lines. 

I initially tried the thin slices of black electric tape that was so wonderful in the fabrication of the landing gear actuator (& many other accessories on my S.E.5 build such as the Aldis gun sight).  However for such a tiny line the tape proved to be too thick.  So I used a thin slice of notebook paper as a substitute.

I super glued one end of the slice of paper and allowed it to dry for a couple of minutes.  Then I tightly wrapped it around the rod until I felt it was about the size of the connector that was to be seen throughout the maze of plumbing.  Then super glued the end and when dried, cut off the tail with a razor.

As you can see from the third photo, the rod and paper wrap combo was quite small compared to my hands.  It should be noted I purposely installed the connector prior to bending the rod as its far easier work with while its straight.

Then it was time to cut it to length. I started on the conservative side and allowed the rod to be slightly too long.  I was taking into account for the bending of the "hydraulic line" to fit from the lines to the actuator.

I have absolutely no idea as to how the landing gear actuator is hooked up as there were no photos or drawings on the Internet or within my collection.  So I took an educated guess as to how it would be hooked up based on my observations of tractors, caterpillars, and backhoes.  I mean, how far off could that be?

I used an old hair dryer for heating the plastic rod just enough to soften it for me to bend without force and allowing it to cool as it held its shape.

From there, it was painting the paper "connector" blue -of course- and then it was a short trial of back-n-forth fitting until the bent line fitted just about right.  From there, it was super-glued into place.

This will be repeated dozens of times throughout the plumbing process with circular bends, zig zags, twists, and more,and no doubt consume a lot of time.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 24th, 2020 at 12:02am
Moment of truth.  Glued the two wing panels together.  Unfortunately, despite all of my cross-checking and twice measuring, I didn't put in enough dihedral.  It's a bit low.  Sheesh...  Lessons learned, somewhere. :-/
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Jan 24th, 2020 at 10:25pm
Still, I found this photo of a Mustang on display and the wing dihedral doesn't look any more pronounced than mine.  So, maybe I'm doing alright....  :o
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Jan 24th, 2020 at 11:57pm
I think we are used to the dihedral we put on our Free Flight models that a scale dihedral looks flat sometimes.  Also angle of the camera can cause things to look very different.  All I have to do is take a picture of my model when I think it's done and find all the things I've forgotten!!! ::) :o :D ;)

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 4th, 2020 at 12:39am
Sky9:

Very well spoken.  I'll take what you said under advisement.  Sometimes we tend to overdo things and I'll be the first to admit that.  Thank you, sir!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 12:04am
Going to jump ahead of myself to illustrate what happens when using Gorilla Glue.  I read the instructions very carefully and it says the glue will expand as it dries.  So, I carefully applied only enough glue to what I thought would be adequate to hold the two wing panels together and also accounting for the expansion into some of the cavities between the wood spars. 

In effort to help protect the finish from getting marred, I placed a folded piece of paper between the clamp and the spars to protect the painted surface. 

Little did I realize just how much that stuff expanded!  Wow.  I had to peel off the paper that was glued to the spar.  Now I'll have to figure out a way  to camouflage the spars.  At least the mess is mangeabler. 

But it does its job and really holds those two panels like they were built in one piece all along.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 12:15am
I thought I would start with the center rib.  I figured as additional reinforcement, it should be a little bit on the thick side.  I posed the model as close as possible with the photo of a plastic model to give a comparison.  Yep, it's a bit thick.

Not too many pictures of the real Mustang's undersides squared-on to see the separation between the inner gear doors.  If I should see any Mustang's undersides, it's usually when they're in a steep turn or in the middle of a roll.  Either way, the gears are retracted concealing the center rib.  Same with the plastic models.  I've seen dozens of plastic Mustangs, but almost all of them show the completed model with the inner gear doors getting in the way of seeing how thick the center rib truly is.

Like most of my modeling style, I've taken to laminating the balsa center rib with plastic sides to avoid all that hassle of sanding, priming and finishing and jump right into the detailing and painting.

I admit that I came awfully close to reproducing another thinner center rib  to help match up the profile of the real aircraft as well as the plastic model.  But I had to "gently" remind myself that this is the underside of the model where most likely people are not gonna notice.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 1:04am
After the center rib was fabricated and simply left in place until such time the detailing would be complete the I felt the next item on the agenda would be to finish off the "ceiling" of the main wheel well interiors and thereby link the two panels.  I took dozen of photos to see what needed to be done.

As you can see, all shared a common theme in which the stringers continued through from the outer wing panels.  However another interesting item was the appearance of what appears to be a cutout at the forward portion near the leading edge of the center section.  The photos of both the full sized Mustang and models all bear this out.  The first photo seems to really exemplify this cutout as well as revealing the rather large plumbing.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 1:23am
Thus, commencing of the "ceiling" began with cutting out a squared piece of laminated paper to fit over the center section and leave the cutout at the front alone. 

I left the center rib temporarily in place for reference.  It also gives me a chance to see how I can go about camouflaging the torn pieces of stuck paper on the spar, which I'll deal with when the final detailing comes prior to plumbing the rest of the wheel well interiors.

The only mistake I made was not paying close enough attention to see that all four corners of the square cutouts were rounded.... Oy Vey.  Devil in the details....   This is where the uplock is located to hold the landing gears in retracted position.

I also determined the location of the internal stringers by simply leaving the faux ceiling in place and matching up the small plastic strips of the outer wing panels to made the line continuous.  The only place I deviated was at the square cutouts.  Despite using a tweezer, I just couldn't get my big hands  close enough in the ceiling with the center rib in the way.  I had to leave it in place so as to give me a reference as how close I could make the lengths of the remaining strips to almost  touching the center rib.  In the end, I removed the "ceiling" and finished gluing the internal strips.

From there, a quick shot of spray paint from my traditional rattle can.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 1:32am
The semi finished "ceiling" looks pretty decent.  With the exception of the stringers near the squared uplock cutouts, they pretty much match the others from the wing panels.  Overall, it looks pretty good.

The outside?  Well, its a mess.  Never to be seen by the outside world.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 10:26pm
Looking at the pictures of both the full sized Mustang and the models, I noticed there were large plumbings along the cutouts near the front of the "ceiling" near the leading edge of both wings.  I knew I was going to replicate this feature (my OCD said so), but I also knew I would need some kind of support for the plumbing to hold it in place.  The thin strips of plastic that's supposed to pass for stringers would not have the strength to hold the plumbing.  I figured if I installed some kind of background "ceiling" it would also double as a means for me to glue on the plumbing into place in between the stringers; thus providing two or three points of glue to help hold the plumbing in place.

This back "ceiling" would have to be somewhat spaced apart and supported by strips of balsa to give it some "depth."

The back "ceiling" would also have to be painted black.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 10:29pm
So I decided to cut out a small squared piece of plastic to serve as a "background ceiling."

Looking at this same piece from the inside, and the white plastic is readily apparent.  This will simply not do.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 10:34pm
Solution?  As the song goes from the Rolling Stones... "Paint it Black."

Much better....  Since I'll need something to hold the uplinks in place, I'll have to also replicate this feature over the two small squared holes..


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 10:40pm
Now on to accessorizing the center rib.  This requires some detail work prior to adding both the hydraulic reservoir and plumbing.  It also has a pressure dial to allow the pilot or mechanic to see how much pressure is within the hydraulic system. Looking closely at the right side of the center rib, it appears it has some reinforced brackets along strategic places.  All of  this, is behind the plumbing.

Looking at the "ceiling" you can also see the oversized pipes that I was describing earlier. 

What makes this challenging is that the left side of the center rib doesn't match.  It has its own set of brackets located in different places.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 10:50pm
The "brackets" were fabricated from plastic strips.  They were bent at right angles and given a few punches on the backside from my needle to give them some 'rivets."

The dial was made from fishing tackle eyes and the dial face was obtained from JTec instruments.  I probably go overboard and actually produce the exact dial of the pressure gauge, but this was one of those rare occasions where common sense kicked in and reminded me that all of this is inside a wheel well, which is underneath the air :-Xplane and hardly anyone would notice.

The plastic tube nearby is to be used as the reservoir.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 10:53pm
Getting a good idea of how this is all going to turn out prior to painting.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 6th, 2020 at 10:58pm
A quick shot of paint, then on to the other side.

Once the brackets and accessories have been fabricated and glued, then I'll start working from the "inside out" and start with the large pipes and reservoir.

The maze of plumbing of smaller pipes and electric conduits will then be last.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Feb 6th, 2020 at 11:42pm
WoW...I vaguely remember trying to do this on a 1/72 scale P-40 many moons ago when I was an IPMS member.  Only it was about 10 times smaller than what you were doing.  I had much better eyesight back then!!! ::) :o ;D ;)
I can buy a lot of balsa and tissue for what those plastic kits cost now a days!
Outstand work you're doing Skyediamonds!

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 8th, 2020 at 1:03am
Wow!  Coming from a fellow modeler and moderator, that's really a compliment.  Thank you sir.  It's greatly appreciated!    I'm sure during your tenure as member of the PMS & moderator of this site, you must've seen many quality models and know what to look for and what is involved.  Yet I managed to solicit such a reaction from you says a lot.
Again, thank you!

I'm really motivated now, but it's close to my beddie bye time... sheesh.   Ah well, tomorrow's Saturday.,, :D 

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 9th, 2020 at 1:39am
I managed to glue on some more "brackets" onto the other side of the center rib.  I tried to line them up with the stringers from the wheel well interior "ceiling."  This is a test-fit.  Not bad....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 9th, 2020 at 1:42am
Painted both sides of the center rib

I made a HUGE Boo Boo....  Can anyone spot it?  Compare the picture on this post with my past post in which I said I managed to line up the "brackets" with the wheel well stringers.

Hint:  the pictures were NOT reversed.... :P

Double hint:  Yes, I took care of it immediately.

My next post should reveal all....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 9th, 2020 at 1:49am
Getting close to replicating the right side of the center rib with the full sized article.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 9th, 2020 at 1:56am
The plastic tubing for the hydraulic reservoir was too small in diameter.  So I just wrapped it around a few times with black electrical tape.

Next, I topped it off with some Spackling Compound and set to dry.  Tomorrow I'll sand the end to a flat conical shape.  This will be the bottom of the reservoir.  I'll leave the top unfinished, since its not going to be seen.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 9th, 2020 at 10:16pm
Detailing the reservoir. 
Sanded the Spackling Compound to shape
Getting there.....
Sprayed primer
Then sanded smooth using # 400 wet-n-dry sand paper

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 9th, 2020 at 10:19pm
Detailing reservoir:

Thin strips of paper was used for the border around the reservoir.

I purposely left a small gap between the ends of the strip as the full sized reservoir had the same thing
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 9th, 2020 at 10:37pm
Making the end fittings to the bottom of the reservoir:
Small plastic rods and tubing were used.
A "T" pin was used as a starter punch for the small drill of the pin vise
Then I used progressively larger drill bits until I could fit the small rod through.  I was concerned that the tubing would collapse before I could complete the drilling.  Fortunately, everything worked out.
Then sanded away all of the excess plastic tailings.
Spray painted the whole assembly with silver.
Once the silver paint is dried, I'll paint the fitting a copper color along with some other bits to finish off the reservoir prior to installing inside the wheel well interior next to the pressure gauge.
The fitting looks larger than it should, but I believe once all of the other colors and pieces are added, it'll all work out...  ::).

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 12th, 2020 at 11:22pm
Going to jump ahead of myself here and explain why I changed the background cutout near the leading edge of the wing from black to ZC green.  When I placed the faux hydraulic lines into their respective places, the black electrical tape used to simulate the black rubberized insulation would disappear in the background. 

Since it was already glued in place, I just hand brushed the ZC green over the black.  Took about three coats. 

Looking at the photo of the right side cutout, I think the hydraulic lines are a bit too thick.  I'm thinking maybe I'll thin one or two of them out.  Comments?

I just modified my post to include a couple of photos of the full sized interiors for comparison.  As of this writing, the plumbing have not been glued in place.

Gettin' thar.....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 15th, 2020 at 2:01am
News:

The reservoir that I worked on the past week turned out too large for the scale wheel well interior.  The bottom of the fittings were sticking out of the wheel well outlines and the body of the reservoir was too fat.  If you zoom in on the the enclosed photo,  it shows its too big for the center rib and the dial.  I'm fabricating another one as I write this test.

You can compare this with my previous reply # 383 that shows the full sized reservoir mounted on the center rib. Unfortunately, due to its small size, I won't be able to detail it as much as the first one.  At least it'll be close enough to fit in the overall interiors.  From here, the electrical harnesses and then the plumbing.

Lessons learned..... sigh.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 23rd, 2020 at 10:07pm
Gentlemen,

Good evening.  I decided to post a few photos of my approach to fabricating those large pipes we've seen in the photos of both the real Mustang and the model.  They were colored blue, copper, white and silver.  On this note, I spray painted each different sized plastic tubing their respective color. 

I decided to replicate the black rubber insulation material by using (what else?) black electrical tape.  I peeled off a section of black tape and laid it down on a plate glass used specifically for cutting tapes, small plastic items and fine paper.  A straight edged metal ruler and razor was used to cut a strip that approximated the size needed for the simulated rubber insulation.

I used Evergreen Plastrut for the simulated plumbing.  They also sell packages that feature a few plastic tubes of each different size.  It was from this pack that I used.   Each tube was spray painted their respective color and cut to size prior to adding the tape.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 23rd, 2020 at 10:20pm
To get simulated adjustable metal straps, I first spray painted a piece of paper.  I tried using the electrical tape, but it turned out to be too thick for this part of the project.

This was the tricky part.  After the paint dried, I cut very thin strips off of the paper using a pair of scissors.  What's so tricky?  The last picture shows how thin the strips were cut in order to get the scale size. 

I should point out that my common theme in most, if not all my models is to use whatever available household tools and goods laying around.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 23rd, 2020 at 10:28pm
Each tiny strip was tacked on the tube using super glue and allowed to dry all of twenty seconds.....

Then each tube was carefully wrapped.  I didn't want to overlap the strips as I wanted to simulate the metal bands being tightened to hold down the rubberized insulation.  This was the primary reason for using paper instead of the thicker black tape.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 23rd, 2020 at 10:32pm
This is the wheel well interior as it stands.    If the silver colored tube on the right side appears bent, its because it is.  I noted on the full sized Mustang, this plumbing was bent to conform to the tight fit within the small area.  Sooo....
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 23rd, 2020 at 11:08pm
To camouflage the glue that oozed out during the gluing process of the two wing panels, a couple of inserts were painted the same color as the wheel well interior, then cut to size and glued (carefully, this time) into place.  It did a pretty good job and also helps to reinforce the center rib.

The landing gear uplocks were also installed at this time.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 23rd, 2020 at 11:27pm
My next task was to fabricate some Mustang-specific items that only an true Mustang enthusiast (fanatic?) would recognize.  From there, I would then "free-lance" out the remaining plumbing and electrical wiring.  It's actually to my advantage that there would be so many variations of wheel well interiors on just the "D" variant alone that allows me free reign.  It's just a matter of choosing what I think would be neat and cool -call it artistic license....  ;)

Here is electrical wiring.  More to come.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 27th, 2020 at 8:38pm
Continuing with the addition of more electrical wiring and extra plumbing and one can easily see the slow, but steady build up of the interiors.

I thought you would appreciate a unique perspective of the wheel wells.  I took a couple of close up photos and had them rotated upside down to give them the perspective of looking at the full sized Mustang.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 27th, 2020 at 8:49pm
Since it's impossible for me to install the plumbing and then add the connectors, or install the plumbing with the connectors and thread them through a small hole within the interior ribs, I devised a different way.

I first fabricated my (now) blue connector fitting onto one end of the pipe.  Then carefully pre-cut the length to also include the bend.

Next, I threaded the bare end of the bent rod through one of the small holes in the rib.  You can see that the plastic rod is bent in effort to clear the surrounding detail. 

At the bend, I carefully rotated the rod around to help continue threading it through the small hole until.....

I managed to pull it just enough to allow the connector to be glued onto the existing rod.

Then the remaining end was cut to length and bent closer to 90 degrees and Voila'.   one more completed plumbed line.  You can also see the hydraulic actuator installed.  I'll explain that in the following posts.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 27th, 2020 at 8:52pm
Compare the photo of the wheel well interiors at the beginning stages  with the one at this point.

Despite the seemingly snail's pace, there's progress on the interior wheel wells.  It's just that there are some components that are Mustang-specific that had to be included which slowed down the overall fabrication.  It's also an example of patience and taking each step as it comes and not hurry to the finish.

As the fabrication process moved forward, the finish should be all the more rewarding in terms of quality as well as knowing the best possible efforts went into each step.  Still more to come.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Feb 27th, 2020 at 9:15pm
The inner gear door hydraulic actuators were fashioned in my time-honored method of using plastic tubing cut to size followed by wrapping a thin slice of tape at the ends.  Then the whole thing was painted overall silver.  Some pictures show them painted overall ZC green, others had a combination of green at the ends with a silver body and more.  For simplicity's sake (& my own) I decided on using an overall silver scheme.  To many small details would, in my opinion, distract the viewer more than looking at the actuator and overall interiors.

I then added a small piece of glossy plastic to the end of the strut to simulate the bracket to hold the actuator.  You can just see it at the bottom end if you zoom up the picture.

Next, I used a piece of tape to hold the "actuator" to a long rod to help me orient the actuator into place.  I gotta admit, at this point, I'm totally guessing at the angle and hoping (praying) that I guessed right; taking into account the future placement of the gear doors and their hinge points.....  :o

I used good ol' Elmer's glue.  Its thick viscosity allowed me to glue both the thick ends and the body of the actuator.  I did the same thing for the other side.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by New Builder on Feb 28th, 2020 at 7:00am
Gary - Your work is the best and very inspirational. So glad to see your posts as your inventiveness is truly great. Look forward to the next post.
Mike

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Mar 2nd, 2020 at 3:20pm
Mike,

Thank you!  Your reply is what's keeping me going.  I actually managed to finish the wheel well interiors.  Now, it's onto reworking the ailerons and their tabs into basswood to be able to take the burnishing of the foils.  I figured the balsa was too soft. 

From there, it's finishing up the cockpit.  I'm still looking for anyone who can reproduce the small stenciling in decal form for the cockpit interior at 1/15th scale.  Any takers?


Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Mar 2nd, 2020 at 5:12pm
Skye,
You might try Callie Graphics Click Here.  Lots of the fellas in FAC are using them for the graphics on their models.  They make lots of markings for RC and Free Flight (always capitalized)... They might already have the markings you're looking for that can be scaled to the size you need!  I understand they have scaled the marking for some of the modelers on HPA!   P-51 Nomenclature

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by heywooood on Mar 7th, 2020 at 9:07am
The markings for my current Gilmore Vega came from Callie and they are beautiful. The only thing I am uncertain of as yet is how they will conform to any compound curved surfaces. They are peel and stick..she does not make waterslide decals. I am hoping for a good result but it will be a few weeks before I am ready to apply them. This is the first time I am using Callie’s product.
You can try Bedlam Creations if you want waterslide decals..I used them on my Stearman PT-17 Guillow project.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Mar 7th, 2020 at 12:55pm
Here's the link for Bedlam Creations: Bedlam Creations-Water slide decals
Sky9pilot

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Mar 9th, 2020 at 11:26pm
WOW!!  Thanks guys.  Heyoood and Sky9!!  You guys really came through.  I'll definitely try both of them...  :D

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Sky9pilot on Mar 22nd, 2020 at 2:41pm
With the detail you include in this model I can fully see how you choose your pictures in the planes archive to detail aircraft.  By the way, fellow modelers, check out Skyediamond's latest pictures of the Neptune PV2-7/SP2-H.  Here's a link to the archives: Click Here

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Mar 22nd, 2020 at 10:22pm
Sky9, Thank you for your generous help.  More to come.  Just hitting low points in my Life as this virus seems to run around.  I don't have it, but everything seems to grind to a halt.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2020 at 5:22pm
Good afternoon everyone,

I trust that all is in good health and is staying at home at this time.

Having said that, I've been somewhat busy working on the model. 

In the beginning of this build, I did a lot of experimenting to determine the best foil and the best approach to applying the foil  In this case, in my humble opinion was Flite Metal.  I'm told that several other products have since come out that may be as good as FM. 

To start, now I have to practice applying the FM.  Like everyone else in modeling, it takes a bit of practice and learning a new skill set to get the desired results.

One thing remains constant:  Surface preparation.  The old adage of the "Finish is only as good as the surface preparation" still applies here as well as painting.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2020 at 5:31pm
In my practice pieces, I have decided to finish as close to the original parts of the model to get a good approximation of the end results.

To start, I thought it would be a good idea to simulate the tail surfaces and their counter-balances as well as the hinge lines.  This way, I could get a good "feel" for how thick the foil covering will be. 

In this case, I simply drew out a rough outline of a faux hinge/counter-weight portion of a typical tail feather.

Next, i cut the pieces along the lines. 

Once separate, I sanded each separate piece starting with # 360 and ended up with # 400 wet-n-dry but did not use water.

From there, I applied a good coat of primer.

I repeated the sanding process as before starting with # 360.

As you can see, since I have no idea what to expect as far as clearances needed to account for the foil being wrapped over the edges, when I put the two pieces together, I left plenty room for the foil between the hinge lines and counter-balances.

I was to find out that the foil is almost as thin as paint.  So all this excess clearance wasn't necessary but glad I practiced on these faux pieces.  More to come.


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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by heywooood on Apr 6th, 2020 at 8:55pm
Glad to hear you are doing ok Gary - happy also to see the Mustang project progressing.
I think we are lucky to have this hobby and the absorbing nature of the work we do. Also to have the works of our friends to
follow along with here and on other sites as well.
I’m paying close attention to your use and examples of this foil covering for a future project of my own..
Chin up everyone - we are all the product of generations of survivors of every plague, famine, war, and pestilence that humanity has ever known. This too shall pass.

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2020 at 10:30pm
Thank you Heywoood,  this too, shall pass.  It's crazy how this hobby has now taken on greater significance.  I "officially" retired when the virus hit.  At 71 years old and driving around picking up pilots and their flight crew from the airport and taking them to the local hotels and back to the airport, Lord knows who was on that flight, or where they flew from.  Didn't want to take any more chances, thank you very much. 

I trust that you're in the best of health and all is good?

With all that said, "On with the show."

Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2020 at 10:47pm
First off, let me get slightly ahead of myself.  The adhesive on the back of Flite Metal is so sticky, that I have to occasionally use the peeled off backing paper to help me handle the foil and the parts.  Once it sticks to one's fingers, it's nearly impossible to get off without pulling and tugging it.  If that happens, count on ruining the smooth finish.  That foil is not very forgiving when it comes to wrinkles.  One can only burnish out some bumps and an occasional wrinkle but for the most part, it's done.

The photo only shows me gently lifting the piece, in actuality if I didn't hold the camera to take this picture, I would've been using my other hand to grab the folded pieces in the background and use them to help me hold the foil without worrying about it sticking.  

Of course, we're not even talking about being careful to avoid getting fingerprints on the finished surface....

Like I mentioned previously, it's a whole new skillset and takes practice and lots of patience.  Whoo boy.. ::)
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2020 at 11:11pm
For the practice (& demo ) I used a piece of used foil that was already crumbled.  I wasn't too worried about the finish. I just wanted to focus on being able to get the darn foil into place without messing up.

There is a bright side to this.  The foil does not need to have the surface polished to a mirror-like finish.  Contrary to what is being said in many advertisements, videos, and even the suggestions that came with this Flite Metal,  one can use it on bare wood.  There's a small price to pay, but I'll get to that in a bit. 

Here, I laid the foil over a piece of scrap balsa.  When laying the piece down, using two piece of folded backing paper to help me hold the foil,  I pulled on the opposite ends to sort of "stretch" out any potential wrinkles as I was laying it down.  You can see that there are already several wrinkles.  Note the small bumps.

Using a terry cloth towel, I gently rubbed it down.  I could use my fingers, and I DID wash ahead of time, but I thought I'd play it safe.  Only potential issue is possibly imparting some of the roughness of the cloth onto the finished surface.  As it turned out, I didn't have to worry.

The last picture shows the foil laid down and pressed to the balsa surface.  In this photo, you can easily see NO wood grain showed through.  Also, note the four small bumps that appear in a semi row.  The dent is from the wood itself.

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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2020 at 11:14pm
Remember I kept reminding you about the small bumps?  I used a burnishing tool that came with the package and managed to rub out the small bumps.  I tried the wrinkles, but for the most part, to no avail. 
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2020 at 11:23pm
Here, I used a pounce wheel to simulate flush rivets.  If I wanted to make domed rivets, I would've had to use the wheel on the back of the foil first, thereby pushing out the rivets on the finished surface before applying the foil. 

Note the small price I had to pay.  That balsa wood is soft.  Just a slight pressure on the wheel is all it takes to have the serrated teeth sink into the balsa wood.  It really doesn't take much.

The fifth row of rivets on the far left, is where I just barely held the wheel in my hand as I ran it down the surface.  This is more to my scale and what I'm looking for. 

Pounce wheels can easily be obtained at local arts and crafts stores and Wal Mart under their arts department.  They often refer to it as "drafting wheel" (or something like that) to be used to poke tiny holes into the original drawing and impart the image in dot form onto the underlining paper.  It looks like a pizza cutter.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2020 at 11:38pm
Before commencing to trial, I laid down a large 1/4" thick plate glass.  I made sure it was scrubbed clean and free of any debris as best as I could.  This is to ensure a smooth and flat surface to work on as well as knowing I could cut as deep as needed and won't cut through the glass.  If I were to use a cutting matt the chances are it would be too soft and however slight, may impart a  small cutting row, which is what I wanted to avoid.

I used a small burnishing tool to help me define the edges of the hinge line.

Then using a fresh razor, I carefully cut the diagonals to the inside of the hinge line.  When cutting metal on metal, count on going through a lot of X-Acto blades. 

Since I'm cutting on the adhesive side, I had to frequently wipe the blade using mineral spirits to help dissolve the sticky adhesive off the blade.  I figured several cuts before tossing the blade.  I'm sure there are other modelers who can cut more frequently before replacing the blade, but this is me and maybe I'm all thumbs.

The last picture shows me lifting the foil and balsa piece.  In this case, I'm only lifting it to move it around to help me position it for  better leverage with the blade.  Why lift and not simply rotate?  I found out the hard way on another piece, that by rotating the finished surface over the glass induced scratches.  Even though the glass is clean and smooth, it still managed to scratch the surface of the foil.  This is another part of the skill-set that I learned.  Whenever I needed to move the piece for further work. to gently lift it away from the working (or cutting) surface before repositioning it.
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Title: Re: Guillow's P-51D Mustang (yep, another one)
Post by Skyediamonds on Apr 6th, 2020 at 11:53pm
I removed as much excess material as possible to avoid anything sticking to each other and my fingers.  The "missing" part of the foil on the lower part of the balsa piece just below the blade has already been folded against the edge of the wood.

Taking a chance I very carefully,  pulled on the edge to tighten the foil over the edge.  From previous experience, I used a burnishing tool to work it over the edge and the results left a small ridge.  It was very small and almost unnoticeable, but I still could see it' and if I could see it, another discerning eye would also notice it as well.  Drawing on previous experience of the foil sticking to my fingers I left a bit of extra foil for me to handle and eventually cut the excess off. 

In this case, pulling it down over using my fingers was a way to avoid the possibility of that small "fold" or ridge left on the corner.
It's sort of like tucking the bedsheets...  ;)

I used a small set of pliers to pull along the insides of the hinge line.

The end results.  Not bad.  The clearances are way too much, but then again, I had no idea as to much allowance I needed to make for the foil between the two "mating" surfaces.  Now I know what is needed to be done.
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